01-05-2002 18:38									#181
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

Gosh, this thread is starting making me sick.
All calls for "father should be obliged to blabla" or "mother should not force blablabla".
Lots talk about how the first person that should be protected is the child, lots talk about his rights and so. Lots wasted talk.

I'm the only person that think that if we talk about the best interests of the child, the FIRST thing is to be sure he was DESIRED by his parents ?
The best way to raise a child is to be both present and willing to see him born.

All that is talked here is a war between the parents about how they would tear their child apart to get the biggest part of him, or how they would try to dump him as fast as possible.

My thought : better to abort than to get a child in such conditions, and better to wait to be ready to get a child before having one.

	01-05-2002 18:49									#182
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

quote: Originally posted by Akka le Vil I'm the only person that think that if we talk about the best interests of the child, the FIRST thing is to be sure he was DESIRED by his parents ?

We are talking about an accidental pregnancy. If its an accident then the child is most likely not desired by the parents.

quote: The best way to raise a child is to be both present and willing to see him born.

Agreed

quote: All that is talked here is a war between the parents about how they would tear their child apart to get the biggest part of him, or how they would try to dump him as fast as possible.

Thats not all we have been talking about. I suggest you re-read the thread.

quote: My thought : better to abort than to get a child in such conditions, and better to wait to be ready to get a child before having one.

Obviously, but in the scenario we have been discussing the pregnancy was accidental.

	01-05-2002 19:00									#183
	Get a bigger avatar today!

quote: Originally posted by Caligastia We are talking about an accidental pregnancy. If its an accident then the child is most likely not desired by the parents. Obviously, but in the scenario we have been discussing the pregnancy was accidental.

So if the child is not desired, let's abort. Isn't it obvious ?

	01-05-2002 19:02									#184
	Full PM-box? Change here!

Nevermind

	01-05-2002 19:08									#185
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

quote: Originally posted by Akka le Vil So if the child is not desired, let's abort. Isn't it obvious ?

Not really. Its up to the woman. Abortion can render a woman infertile if something goes wrong. I agree that abortion is better than having an unwanted child, but not everyone will choose that option.

	01-05-2002 19:45									#186
	Get a bigger avatar today!

quote: Originally posted by Caligastia Not really. Its up to the woman. Abortion can render a woman infertile if something goes wrong. I agree that abortion is better than having an unwanted child, but not everyone will choose that option.

Then if it's up to the woman, don't bother the father asking him to pay to support children.

	01-05-2002 19:49									#187
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by Akka le Vil Then if it's up to the woman, don't bother the father asking him to pay to support children.

According to you this is just "wasted talk".

quote: Originally posted by Akka le Vil Gosh, this thread is starting making me sick. All calls for "father should be obliged to blabla" or "mother should not force blablabla". Lots talk about how the first person that should be protected is the child, lots talk about his rights and so. Lots wasted talk.

	01-05-2002 19:50									#188
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

quote: Originally posted by Akka le Vil Then if it's up to the woman, don't bother the father asking him to pay to support children.

The father should have thought of that beforehand.

	01-05-2002 19:52									#189
	Get a bigger avatar today!

People are responsibles for THEIR decisions, not decisions of others.

Unless they BOTH agreed to get a child, I don't consider him to be willing having a child and to be responsible of an accident.

	01-05-2002 19:57									#190
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

quote: Originally posted by Caligastia According to you this is just "wasted talk".

Yup. If you bother about the children, then the only thing to do is to be sure that both parents agree on having a child.
If one of them does not agree about the child, then I consider they SHOULD NOT have one.
So if a woman persist to keep the child she got, well it's her own responsability and she's the only one accountable for this.

	01-05-2002 19:58									#191
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

quote: Originally posted by Akka le Vil People are responsibles for THEIR decisions, not decisions of others.

They are also responsible for the foreseeable consequences of those decisions of which this is.

	01-05-2002 20:03									#192
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc They are also responsible for the foreseeable consequences of those decisions of which this is.

Blablablah.

The girl can take pills, and the man can use condom. If one of them is used, then it's because they agreed to NOT have children, then the "foreseeable consequences of those decisions" is to not have children, then there is nothing to reproach to the man.
There is an accident ? Well, then they should either decide TOGETHER to keep the child or not. If the woman force the decision to keep it while the man does not want, it's HER decision.

	01-05-2002 20:03									#193
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

quote: Originally posted by Akka le Vil Yup. If you bother about the children, then the only thing to do is to be sure that both parents agree on having a child. If one of them does not agree about the child, then I consider they SHOULD NOT have one.

I agree.

quote: So if a woman persist to keep the child she got, well it's her own responsability and she's the only one accountable for this.

It takes two to tango.

	01-05-2002 20:06									#194
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

quote: Originally posted by Caligastia It takes two to tango.

Cf my previous message : the woman can force the decision to keep a child or not, so it's HER responsability.

	01-05-2002 20:07									#195
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

quote: Originally posted by Akka le Vil Cf my previous message : the woman can force the decision to keep a child or not, so it's HER responsability.

Its her body. The man already took the risk of having a child when he had sex. He has to deal with the unforseen consequences.

	01-05-2002 20:10									#196
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

quote: Originally posted by Akka le Vil Blablablah.

I can just see you with fingers in your ears shouting, "I can not hear you!" over and over again.

quote: The girl can take pills, and the man can use condom.

Neither of which are 100% effective. The risk still exists.

quote: There is an accident ?

They just accidentally fell on top of each other?

	01-05-2002 20:35									#197
	Get a bigger avatar today!

quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc I can just see you with fingers in your ears shouting, "I can not hear you!" over and over again.

Sadly for me, I can still read you, even with a whole hand in each ear.

quote: Neither of which are 100% effective. The risk still exists.

Wow ???
What a surprise !!!
Why do you think I talk about accident the very next line ?

quote: quote: There is an accident ? They just accidentally fell on top of each other?

Ok, I know see. You just don't understand the sentence.
I was meaning "And then, if there is an accident (=> unwanted pregnancy).

	01-05-2002 20:38									#198
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

quote: Originally posted by Caligastia Its her body. The man already took the risk of having a child when he had sex. He has to deal with the unforseen consequences.

Dumb.
If he use contraceptive methods, he's not responsible for an accident.

Or next time you fell and you broke something, I'll ask you to be kicked out of the hospital : after all, you walked, you took the risk to fell.

And yes, it's the woman body. That's why she has the final word and can decide to keep or not the child. But I don't consider that the guy is responsible for her decision.

Or do you consider women so inferiors that they don't have any free will for themselves and then there must a man who is responsible for their decision, just like a parent with his young children ?

Ah well, I'm sick of it. If you can't grasp the concept of PERSONNAL RESPONSABILITIES then I just can't do anything for you.

	01-05-2002 20:43									#199
	Remove this text

quote: Originally posted by Akka le Vil Wow ??? What a surprise !!!

Yes, I thought that you would be supprised. Given this fact, I would argue that the father assumed the risk of disease and/or being responsible for a pregnancy as a result of his activity.

quote: Why do you think I talk about accident the very next line ?

Foolishness?

	01-05-2002 20:46									#200
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

quote: Originally posted by Akka le Vil If you can't grasp the concept of PERSONNAL RESPONSABILITIES then I just can't do anything for you.

It looks like you are the one that can not grasp the personal responsibility given the fact that you are arguing in favor of people being able to shirk them.

	01-05-2002 20:48									#201
	Increase the size of your Attachments

Err...
Dinodoc...
Well, perhaps it's just that I'm myself a little slow and I can't see yours, but...

Really...

You did not see any irony in my previous answer ?

(I mean, you're American, ok, but still...)


Just in case the incredible is real and you did really not see the irony, I'll still answer :

quote: Given this fact, I would argue that the father assumed the risk of disease and/or being responsible for a pregnancy as a result of his activity.

The mother assumed the risk of disease and/or being subject for a pregnancy as a result of her activity. Final point.

	01-05-2002 20:51									#202
	I saw the irony. Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

quote: Originally posted by Akka le Vil The mother assumed the risk of disease and/or being subject for a pregnancy as a result of her activity. Final point.

Your point is? I'm against abortion on principle.

	01-05-2002 20:51									#203
	Full PM-box? Change here!

quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc It looks like you are the one that can not grasp the personal responsibility given the fact that you are arguing in favor of people being able to shirk them.

I do not ask for people to bear the responsability of other's decisions.
Both decided to have sex, both knew the risk, both agreed not having a child. If a woman wish to break this agreement by keeping the child, it's HER decision and in NO WAY the man has something to do with it.

	01-05-2002 22:29									#204
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

quote: Originally posted by Caligastia You have to have a double standard because men and women are fundimentally different. Despite the marxist thinking that declares "we are all equal", the fact is we are not. Everyone is different, and you cant get much more different than a man and a woman. In the case of an accidental pregnancy BOTH the man and the woman are responsible for it and BOTH have to deal with it in their own way. The man has to be prepared to support the child, and the woman has to decide whether she wants the child at all. There is no way for the situation to be completely fair for both because if the woman gets an abortion then the man gets off () scot-free, while the woman has to deal with the emotional and physical trauma of having an abortion. I agree with the laws as they are, because in the end I want whats best for the child. It may not be completely fair for the man, but its better than having both the woman and the child suffer.

Thats the end of your argument Akka De Vil

	01-05-2002 23:18									#205
	Inflate your Upload Space

quote: Originally posted by Caligastia Thats the end of your argument Akka De Vil

No, that's end for yours.

The child will suffer only if the woman does not abort, you just can't make something which is not existing suffer.

And right or wrong are not a question of adding number of people who will suffer. As I repeated it thousand times : it's HER choice to keep the child, it's HER problem.

That's my final and last post on this thread except something new appear, I'm tired of this argument. It's unlikely any of us will make the other change its mind, well never mind.

	01-05-2002 23:37									#206
	Full PM-box? Change here!

quote: Originally posted by Akka le Vil The child will suffer only if the woman does not abort

Its not a foregone conclusion that the child will suffer. The parents can decide to take responsibility for the life they created and do the best they can to raise it. The mother and child will definitely suffer financial hardship (unless they are rich) if the father doesnt contribute.

quote: And right or wrong are not a question of adding number of people who will suffer. As I repeated it thousand times : it's HER choice to keep the child, it's HER problem.

Thats a terribly selfish attitude. You dont think its better to minimise the suffering for all involved? How ridiculous. She didnt choose to be pregnant any more than the man if they took the proper precautions, so what you saying is that if she gets pregnant its HER problem. You must be a real unfeeling bastard.

	02-05-2002 07:35									#207
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

quote: Its not a foregone conclusion

Darn close, it is not a foregone conclusion the child and mother will suffer either is it. A little hard work just like the man and she is with income again. After all if a single man can do it a single woman can too...On top of that if they had joint custody and were treated like equals which they are...Then each would share the responsibility and cost would they not...

quote: The parents can decide to take responsibility for the life they created and do the best they can to raise it.

They implies “together” “sole custody” means one…The courts (adversarial) decide this for the parents.

quote: You must be a real unfeeling bastard.

While I do not agree with what was said…My two cents worth, it is an unfeeling bastard that orders a child to not have their biological father and replaces him with cash…

	02-05-2002 08:10									#208
	Increase Your PM Length

Blackice:

I am disappointed that you have chosen not to respond to my previous arguments, as I was quite enjoying the sparring, and hope you were too. I am curious as to your response to my last post on this issue, if you had one.

	02-05-2002 09:40									#209
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

asleepathewheel my apologies I will read them and respond as best I can. My time being limited for the better part of the next month has me speed-reading through the post’s. That explains some of my disjointed posts Yes I too enjoy the sparring especially civil sparing as you have easily maintained. Holly crap it’s up to 21 pages

Good points and I will research your work and your points thoroughly including the constitutional challenge going on in the USA right now.
Thanks for the challenge. The timing is good… I saved and will catch up, BTW I was not trying to be condescending just that it reminded me of that…

Caligastia

quote: So you agree that in the case of an accidental pregnancy that the father is equally responsible for taking care of the child if the mother decides to have it?

ABSOLUTLY!!!!!

	02-05-2002 10:02									#210
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by blackice asleepathewheel my apologies I will read them and respond as best I can. My time being limited for the better part of the next month has me speed-reading through the post’s. That explains some of my disjointed posts Yes I too enjoy the sparring especially civil sparing as you have easily maintained. Holly crap it’s up to 21 pages

haha, I can certainly understand that. I am quite busy as well and was using our conversation as a way to study for an upcoming final!

quote: Originally posted by blackice Good points and I will research your work and your points thoroughly including the constitutional challenge going on in the USA right now. Thanks for the challenge. The timing is good… I saved and will catch up, BTW I was not trying to be condescending just that it reminded me of that…

Sounds great. Its interesting to hear your point of view. As you are no doubt aware, the father lobby is gaining ground in the state houses in the US, so its pretty interesting to see what the goal is. One of my professors drafted the latest revisions to the Missouri laws on children and custody issues, so I have heard a lot about custody issues lately. And for some reason I find it interesting as well (though I would normally stick to the criminal side) I think the welfare of children seems so vital to me, as opposed to the corporate whores that so many lawyers turn out to be.