27-04-2002 03:21									#121
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui asleep, you are looking at this WAAAAY too legally. We don't care what the courts would say. We are saying what is right and fair. Courts be damned.

haha, you're probably right.

however, I am also looking at it as a product of divorce. While my parents both wanted me (or so I assume ) how would I have coped as a child after they divorced (when I was 6) and not had the support from my father (who never had a problem supporting me, afaik). Its not that much of a step further for me to imagine if my father skipped out altogether, mother struggling to raise me (and a sibling) on just her salary. not the ideal situation for a child.

	27-04-2002 03:27									#122
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quote: LEGAL TIES? Is that all this is to you?

Yes... both sides should have a fair chance for severing ties.

quote: Abortion in and of itself is 'taking responsibility'

No it isn't. Taking responsibility would be to have the child and raise it.

--

asleep, I can totally understand, and most of those (under my plan, I guess) who refused to pay support, I'd consider reprehensible, but I can't promote unfairness in the law.

	27-04-2002 03:31									#123
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui quote: Abortion in and of itself is 'taking responsibility' No it isn't. Taking responsibility would be to have the child and raise it.

Notice the quotation marks? it may not be taking responsibility in the most common sense, but it is dealing with the responsibility none the less.

	27-04-2002 03:31									#124
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui asleep, I can totally understand, and most of those (under my plan, I guess) who refused to pay support, I'd consider reprehensible, but I can't promote unfairness in the law.

I understand. Its just a matter of priorities, I suppose. I can really see both sides. As a guy, this stuff would piss me off, not being in control of my own destiny, having the control be in the hands of a one night stand.

	27-04-2002 04:12									#125
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quote: What nationalist was getting at, and which others seem to be intentionally ignoring, or twisting, is that a fetus will continue to develope if nothing is done.

Cut off nutrients to the fetus and it won't develop. If you the mother does "nothing" with regards to the fertilized ova (does not send nutrients to it) it won't become a "person." Likewise, if the mother does "nothing" with regards to her skin cells, they won't become "people."

The only distinction is that one process uses the infrastructure natural selection gave to the mother, while the other uses more technology. And I don't see how that distinction is relevant.

	27-04-2002 06:38									#126
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quote: Originally posted by November Adam Should a man who wants the woman he got pregnant to have an abortion, should he have to pay child support if she chooses not to? Should a legal system that supports abortion be in the right to force him to do so?

I believe the laws should promote family units. Therefore, I think the law ought to be something like this:

1) If a woman has a baby from a consensual relationship but is not married to the father, she should responsible for bringing up the child. The child should have no rights of inheritance.

2) The opposite if the woman is married to the father or if she was raped.

3) If a married woman has an abortion without the consent of her husband she may be immediately divorced without right of alimony, inheritance or other property rights she may have had through marriage. It should void all prenuptial agreements. An exception should be if the abortion were required to save her life.

4) If the man is not married to the woman, he should have no say at all in whether she aborts.

The consequence of the above legal regime would be that a lot fewer women would be willing to have unprotected sex outside of marriage, or have abortions without getting their husband's approval. It would level the playing field.

Ned

	27-04-2002 07:03									#127
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quote: Originally posted by Ramo Cut off nutrients to the fetus and it won't develop. If you the mother does "nothing" with regards to the fertilized ova (does not send nutrients to it) it won't become a "person." Likewise, if the mother does "nothing" with regards to her skin cells, they won't become "people."

That is a ridiculous argument. The fetus will die if the mother doesn't eat. No ****. The mother would probably starve to death as well. I can't see what you are trying to get at with this.

quote: The only distinction is that one process uses the infrastructure natural selection gave to the mother, while the other uses more technology. And I don't see how that distinction is relevant.

I'm speechless. If you can't see the relevance in the distinction between getting pregnant and doing this quasi-scientific skin cell nonsense then you are an idiot. You people are really scraping to put together an argument.

	27-04-2002 07:06									#128
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quote: Originally posted by Urban Ranger [QUOTE]So are parasites. They tend to have different genetic codes than their hosts.

So, you see no difference between fetuses and parasites?

quote: A fetus does not necessary develop into a person. Besides, in theory, any cells of your body can develop into a person. So does it mean scratching yourself is not allowed?

What does a fetus develop into besides a baby? The last part makes no sense. I'll address it this way. How often do your skin cells develop into babies? Now, how often do fetuses develop into babies. That statement is completely assinine. No, you shouldn't scratch yourself... I can't believe that I dignified that with a response.

	27-04-2002 07:15									#129
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quote: Originally posted by Akka le Vil Nationalist, your own seminal cells have a different genetic code than you. Does that means they are a different person than you ? Twins has exactly the same genetic code. Does that means they are the same person ?

Splitting hairs. No, semen doesn't have your exact genetic structure, but it has enough to do what it is supposed to do: share your genetic information. Left to develop, semen will not develop into a disitinct person. As for twins, identical twins are initially the same person in a pregnancy, eventually splitting to become separate beings. After that point they are two different people, genetically and physically distinct from their mother, but only physically distinct from each other. Its the same as having a clone: you are genetically the same person as a clone, but you are physically distinct.

quote: A person is a 'sentient being'. As long as the fetus does not have a nervous system, it's nothing more than a cell pack.

That "cell pack" will become sentient in a very short time. I think that it is short sighted to say "hey, its only a cell pack" and dispose of it. Do you do everything without thinking of the consequences, or without taking consideration of what will happen if you wait? I hope that you don't.

	27-04-2002 07:37									#130
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quote: The consequence of the above legal regime would be that a lot fewer women would be willing to have unprotected sex outside of marriage, or have abortions without getting their husband's approval. It would level the playing field

Not bad ideas at all. Very well thought out, may I add.

	27-04-2002 21:53									#131
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quote: Originally posted by Ramo Cut off nutrients to the fetus and it won't develop. If you the mother does "nothing" with regards to the fertilized ova (does not send nutrients to it) it won't become a "person." Likewise, if the mother does "nothing" with regards to her skin cells, they won't become "people." The only distinction is that one process uses the infrastructure natural selection gave to the mother, while the other uses more technology. And I don't see how that distinction is relevant.

You have as much of a chance of cutting nutrients off to the fetus, as you do of cutting off your blood flow through your heart. Yet you do nothing to make the blood flow. It's a biological function.

	27-04-2002 23:06									#132
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quote: Originally posted by Ned The consequence of the above legal regime would be that a lot fewer women would be willing to have unprotected sex outside of marriage, or have abortions without getting their husband's approval. It would level the playing field.

Do you actually think that people always think of the consequences when they have sex? I'm sorry, but I doubt that your suggestions would actually have any effect on sex. In the heat of the moment, do you really think the woman will say "if I get pregnant, you do not have to help out". don't you think that if the woman was thinking about getting pregnant at all, she would have had him use a condom in the first place?

	27-04-2002 23:45									#133
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quote: Originally posted by asleepathewheel Do you actually think that people always think of the consequences when they have sex? I'm sorry, but I doubt that your suggestions would actually have any effect on sex. In the heat of the moment, do you really think the woman will say "if I get pregnant, you do not have to help out". don't you think that if the woman was thinking about getting pregnant at all, she would have had him use a condom in the first place?

From my own personal experience, yes.

I think women are very capable of self control.

Ned

	27-04-2002 23:54									#134
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quote: Originally posted by Ned From my own personal experience, yes. I think women are very capable of self control. Ned

of course each sex is capable of self control.

my point is that the out of wedlock prenancy rate is already high. Don't you think that if one of the two was thinking about pregnancy, they would have acted differently?

Or do you think that the woman is like "I don't care if i get pregnant, but, Damn! since the guy doesn't have to pay, lets use protection." Who thinks like that?

	28-04-2002 00:35									#135
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Asleepatthewheel, Since the law is not now the way I suggested it should be, we can really know whether women would change their thinking about unprotected sex before marriage. I just think they would, but I might be wrong.
Ned

	28-04-2002 00:40									#136
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quote: Originally posted by Ned Asleepatthewheel, Since the law is not now the way I suggested it should be, we can really know whether women would change their thinking about unprotected sex before marriage. I just think they would, but I might be wrong. Ned

I know, I could be wrong too. Who knows what THEY are actually thinking at any given time anyway, eh? God knows I don't.

	28-04-2002 00:46									#137
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quote: You have as much of a chance of cutting nutrients off to the fetus, as you do of cutting off your blood flow through your heart. Yet you do nothing to make the blood flow. It's a biological function.

I didn't say otherwise. Again, one process uses a biological infrastructure, while another uses a technological infrastructure. There is no relevant distinction between the two. Unless you bring up theological nonsense.

quote: That is a ridiculous argument. The fetus will die if the mother doesn't eat. No ****. The mother would probably starve to death as well. I can't see what you are trying to get at with this.

If the mother provides a similar infrastructure for her skin cell to develop that her biology provides for her fertilized ova, it will become a person.

The development of the fetus rests entirely upon the actions of the mother, just as the development of the skin cell does. Nothing happens automatically.

Don't like skin cells? A sperm may become up a person if it comes in contact with an egg and then gets the needed nutrients from the owner of the egg.

Just because something may become a person, doesn't give it the legal rights of a person. I don't see why an undeveloped fetus should be any different.

quote: I'm speechless. If you can't see the relevance in the distinction between getting pregnant and doing this quasi-scientific skin cell nonsense then you are an idiot. You people are really scraping to put together an argument.

If you have to resort to ad hominen attacks because you can't come up with a response, then you're an idiot and you have no argument.

quote: How often do your skin cells develop into babies? Now, how often do fetuses develop into babies.

Irrelevent. Both have the possibility of becoming a baby.

	28-04-2002 02:43									#138
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quote: Originally posted by Ramo If you have to resort to ad hominen attacks because you can't come up with a response, then you're an idiot and you have no argument.

I didn't write this because I have no response, I wrote it because I am amazed someone can write what you wrote with a straight face. If you want my arguments, read my posts. No one will buy the arguments that you have put forth, because they are half logic and psuedo science. Right now, a skin cell can't develop into a person no matter what you do with it. A fertilized egg will. You can't possibly compare their possibilities. Oh wait, yes you can: A fetus will develop into a baby (unless disrupted from the outside). A skin cell won't. Its that simple. True, a woman's actions decide if the fetus lives. If they didn't would we be having this argument? However, the woman can't cut the nutrients off from the fetus without cutting them off from herself. I don't even see how you can justify these excuses to yourself. If you wan't to argue more about this, then PM me.

	28-04-2002 03:50									#139
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Nationalist, what's about in vitro fetus ?
Have they the same rights to live than in vivo fetus ?

	28-04-2002 03:52									#140
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i'm going to repost this here:

here's a new quandry:
teenage pregnancy.

if the girl is living at her parent's house and get's pregnant, should she move out? to what extent to her parents have repsonsibility for her child? and what if her parents have other children living in the home? isn't that unfair to do to them just because some girl can't take her birth control normally? SHould she be made to give it up for adoption? abortion?

specific situation: the girl hasn't graduated from high school; in fact, she's dropped out. her abusive boyfriend that she refuses to break up with also is a drop out and never works..no job. he mooches of her, who in turn steals from her dad...who just takes it despite the fact that he has 6 other children! what about them? They're pro-life, and after moving out for awhile, the girl returns home and announces to the household that she's pregnant, and takes on the front that everyone will just have to deal with it. Her father is angry, but he never puts his foot down with her. THis girl will be 18 in july. Does anyone have the right to step in? If so, in what way.

	28-04-2002 03:55									#141
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quote: Originally posted by asleepathewheel I know, I could be wrong too. Who knows what THEY are actually thinking at any given time anyway, eh? God knows I don't.

Well, women themselves don't know what they're thinking at any time

	28-04-2002 03:57									#142
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quote: Originally posted by devilmunchkin Does anyone have the right to step in? If so, in what way.

I would advise to start by a good slapping.

	28-04-2002 04:01									#143
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Devilmunchkin, Obviously, you are either the Dad, the deadbeat boyfriend or the irresponsible daughter. Which is it?

	28-04-2002 04:04									#144
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lol. i'm none of the above. i'm 20 and very much not pregnant. I'm obviously not the father, i'm female. I'm an outsider looking at this situation ..i'm one of the brother's girlfriends...one of the pregnant girl' s brother's.

	28-04-2002 06:07									#145
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quote: Originally posted by devilmunchkin i'm going to repost this here: here's a new quandry: teenage pregnancy. if the girl is living at her parent's house and get's pregnant, should she move out? to what extent to her parents have repsonsibility for her child? and what if her parents have other children living in the home? isn't that unfair to do to them just because some girl can't take her birth control normally? SHould she be made to give it up for adoption? abortion? specific situation: the girl hasn't graduated from high school; in fact, she's dropped out. her abusive boyfriend that she refuses to break up with also is a drop out and never works..no job. he mooches of her, who in turn steals from her dad...who just takes it despite the fact that he has 6 other children! what about them? They're pro-life, and after moving out for awhile, the girl returns home and announces to the household that she's pregnant, and takes on the front that everyone will just have to deal with it. Her father is angry, but he never puts his foot down with her. THis girl will be 18 in july. Does anyone have the right to step in? If so, in what way.

I have an idea. Wait until the baby is born, give the baby to the grandparents. Then abort the baby's parents.

	28-04-2002 07:11									#146
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DMK, Long term, that boy has to get a job and marry the girl. I think the Dad ought to get the brother and perhaps a few others together and "persuade" the boy to do the right thing. Ned

	28-04-2002 09:28									#147
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the boy..hard one. this will be difficult. not only has he abused the pregnant girl, he's attacked her dad. yeah. bad situation. the pregnant girl's dad has a 10 year old son as his youngest child..and i just don't think it's fair that his kids are going to have to suffer because she can't take birth control regularly.
I've thought that maybe she could give it up for adoption, but from the sounds of it, she isplanning on keeping it and staying in the house of her father and not even suing for child support...i.e. this means she's throwing it all on her dad to raise the child.
technically it's not my place to even utter a word...but i get upset over these things because it's happened in my own family. one of my cousin;s had a child when she was 17 and at age 22 is still living at home, mooching off her mother. she's even mooched off my own mother...which doubly pissed me off. i guess this new situation just hit a little too close to home and my defense flags are going up. my boyfriend's dad has SUCH a kind heart. He's 60, and i just think he should be able to start enjoying life rather than raising her kid.

Last edited by devilmunchkin on 28-04-2002 at 09:34

	28-04-2002 09:33									#148
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui quote: translation: victory You remind me of the creationists on Poly .

BWAHHAHAA!! HAH HAH!! Heh!... hum...

[wipes lonely tear from cheek]

	28-04-2002 10:01									#149
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quote: Originally posted by devilmunchkin the boy..hard one. this will be difficult. not only has he abused the pregnant girl, he's attacked her dad. yeah. bad situation. the pregnant girl's dad has a 10 year old son as his youngest child..and i just don't think it's fair that his kids are going to have to suffer because she can't take birth control regularly. I've thought that maybe she could give it up for adoption, but from the sounds of it, she isplanning on keeping it and staying in the house of her father and not even suing for child support...i.e. this means she's throwing it all on her dad to raise the child. technically it's not my place to even utter a word...but i get upset over these things because it's happened in my own family. one of my cousin;s had a child when she was 17 and at age 22 is still living at home, mooching off her mother. she's even mooched off my own mother...which doubly pissed me off. i guess this new situation just hit a little too close to home and my defense flags are going up. my boyfriend's dad has SUCH a kind heart. He's 60, and i just think he should be able to start enjoying life rather than raising her kid.

wow... sounds like that girl and her boyfriend are nothing but trouble. If I were the girl's dad I'd get a restraining order on her scumbag boyfriend, then kick his daughter out of the house. If she is so GD grown up and independant, its time for her to prove it. Sometimes parents have to wash their hands of grown children that are problems. At least this way the girl's little siblings will be able to grow up in relative peace. I feel sorry for the Dad as well.

	28-04-2002 10:03									#150
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that's what i think..but it's not my place to say something. and her father is such a kind man to the point where she treats him like a doormat. my bf tells me "that he's really angry," but i've seen it before..he'll just back down and she'll end up taking over the house with that kid. her father has 6 other kids to deal with and now she's adding another. *sigh* but it's not my place to sa a damn thing is it?