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Shi Huangdi
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Pittsburgh, PA
Apr 1999
time: 00:19
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quote:
Originally posted by Guynemer
Christ on a pogo stick, people! Isn't it a little early to start scoring little political points with this, pro-gun or anti-gun, zero-tolerance or not zero-tolerance, ad naseum? Honestly, I expected better out of some of you. |
I agree with you. But then, I also remember back during the Columbine shootings some European posters immediatly began gun control ranting and saying this happened due to US lax gun laws. I suspect some of the anti-gun control people on this thread remember that too.
I didn't know you at the time of the Columbine Shooting, so I don't know what you would have done on this forum.
Anyway, the danger these killings pose are overblown. There are so many more things that pose a greater danger-- Car accidents, alcohol, drugs, gangs and others kill far more. While these killings are done in a much more spectacular and dramatic fashion, that does not warrant further opression against an already opressed group of people.
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Dr Strangelove
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I might point out that in the time period that Germany had one mass school shooting, we here in the US have had more than a half dozen. It would appear that something is driving the higher rate od violence in the US.
Some of these guys seem to have some twisted notion of ganing a sort of fame from their actions. Maybe Andy Warhol is our problem.
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Ecthy
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Zhonghuà Rénmín Gònghéguó
Mar 2000
time: 06:19
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Noone evr said guns are banned, but at least there is such a thing as gun control.
This guy was a member of a shooting club (modern form of archery/marksmanship thing, you get the idea), and he had official permits t oown those weapons. BTW, we distinguish between permits to own and permits to use weapons.
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Ecthy
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Zhonghuà Rénmín Gònghéguó
Mar 2000
time: 06:19
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fair enough, well it seems there is a hostage taking incident going on right now, so make that another one
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OzzyKP
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Rockville, MD
Oct 1999
time: 00:19
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quote:
Originally posted by Shi Huangdi
Read the paper today and it's article on the massacre. This was no outcast doing this massacre. People around the school were shocked, they said they didn't have the image of him as someone who would do this. They said he was loud, talkative, had lots of friends, and went to parties. The massacre was aimed at the administration and the teachers primarily. You were wrong to automatically assume this was an outcast.
Should we start profiling popular people now? |
My point wasn't that he was an outcast. Being an outcast doesn't necessarily have to do with it (it certainly makes things worse) but just being young does. The system (for the most part) oppresses all young people equally. I think the popularity of this murderer is shown by the targets he chose. In Columbine the murderers were outcasts so they shot the popular students they felt bullied them. In this case he wasn't bullied or oppressed by his fellow students but more directly by the system, so he almost exclusively murdered teachers.
Oppression has a way of acting in a chain. If you look at the American South pre-civil rights, the most racist whites were poor whites. They had less respect and ability than wealthy whites so sought to better their position by putting down blacks. This is how it always works, Group A oppressed Group B, so Group B finds a scapegoat to oppress. This is how it works in schools among youth. The 'system' (teachers, parents, government, etc) oppresses all youth, rather than settle with just being oppressed the jocks, preps, whoever, seek to alieviate their situation somewhat by manuevering themselves into the middle of the chain rather than the bottom, so they start bullying their fellow students, the outcasts.
This chain gets even more complex than this. In middle school my friends and I were in the middle spot among students, we would get picked on by certain groups of students and we would pick on other groups of students. It is a shameful thing I have done, but it is what happens when you are in a system of oppression.
When someone is in this system of oppression every once in a while they will snap and have enough of it and they will strike back against their oppressors. In Columbine they struck back against the popular kids, in Germany he struck back at his teachers.
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Tom201
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Amsterdam
Dec 2001
time: 05:19
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quote:
I'm not sure if school is still compulsory in Germany, but here if you don't go to school you break the law and there are penalties associated with it |
When I translated "compulsory" right, yes. Everyone has to go to school in Germany and can be enforced by the police. But you can decide to quit with 14 or older on your own, bevor that you need the aproval of your parents.
quote:
Gatto proves that despite noble goals, schools spend more of their time trying to control behavior than acutally teaching anything. When authority tries to control your behavior that is oppression. |
Depends what exactly is meant with control of behavior.
If this is about "dont disturb the teachers speech" or something on that lines, I dont see anything wrong with it.
If it is about military camp like behavior and school uniforms, I agree.
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Dr Strangelove
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quote:
Originally posted by OzzyKP
My point wasn't that he was an outcast. Being an outcast doesn't necessarily have to do with it (it certainly makes things worse) but just being young does. The system (for the most part) oppresses all young people equally. I think the popularity of this murderer is shown by the targets he chose. In Columbine the murderers were outcasts so they shot the popular students they felt bullied them. In this case he wasn't bullied or oppressed by his fellow students but more directly by the system, so he almost exclusively murdered teachers.
Oppression has a way of acting in a chain. If you look at the American South pre-civil rights, the most racist whites were poor whites. They had less respect and ability than wealthy whites so sought to better their position by putting down blacks. This is how it always works, Group A oppressed Group B, so Group B finds a scapegoat to oppress. This is how it works in schools among youth. The 'system' (teachers, parents, government, etc) oppresses all youth, rather than settle with just being oppressed the jocks, preps, whoever, seek to alieviate their situation somewhat by manuevering themselves into the middle of the chain rather than the bottom, so they start bullying their fellow students, the outcasts.
This chain gets even more complex than this. In middle school my friends and I were in the middle spot among students, we would get picked on by certain groups of students and we would pick on other groups of students. It is a shameful thing I have done, but it is what happens when you are in a system of oppression.
When someone is in this system of oppression every once in a while they will snap and have enough of it and they will strike back against their oppressors. In Columbine they struck back against the popular kids, in Germany he struck back at his teachers. |
In Columbine the killers were neo-Nazis who had their own web "hate page". There were times that they "goose stepped" down the hallway while giving the Nazis salute. They had their own little following. They lamented the absence of black and Jewish targets at their school. They picked Hitler's birthday as their attack day. They didn't just attack the popular kids. In fact they tried to blow up the whole school. One of the girls was shot in the face point blank for refusing to denounce her religion. This particular girl was overweight and had been a sort of "party girl" in order to compensate. She had found religion some time before the massacre because she felt guilty over having been part of the cause of one of her mother's suicide attempts. But these poor oppressed kids killed her because she had made herslf unavailable sexually. Jeez, Ozzie, are we just oppressing the heck out of Nazis? Perhaps the other kids at Columbine should have been forced to kiss their Nazis a**?
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Shi Huangdi
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Pittsburgh, PA
Apr 1999
time: 00:19
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"The system (for the most part) oppresses all young people equally"
No it doesn't. Your description of the world of high schoolers as a windowless prison is just untrue. Most parents give their kids a great deal of choice in their lives. The popular people are in the upper tier of society- the jocks in particular get the best girls, the greatest glory, and the ability to do what they want to.
"In this case he wasn't bullied or oppressed by his fellow students but more directly by the system, so he almost exclusively murdered teachers."
He was expelled, he was not being opressed.
"In middle school my friends and I were in the middle spot among students, we would get picked on by certain groups of students and we would pick on other groups of students."
The problem with your theory is that the people who are at the highest levels are not being picked on at all, but instead are treated as ubermensch. Just as in the South, the Rich Whites were not being opressed but that did not stop them from opression.
The fact is, most kids know and accept their parents authority. They know they will have their independence eventually, and are too concerned with their daily lives to become depressed over the authority of their lives, except in extreme cases.
"When someone is in this system of oppression every once in a while they will snap and have enough of it and they will strike back against their oppressors"
And the common theme of this is people who are severe cases. The German comitted his massacre because he was expelled. At Columbine there was a massacre because Harris and Klebold were treated like human scum all their life. People do not go and commit massacres because parents and teachers can tell them what to do.
"Perhaps the other kids at Columbine should have been forced to kiss their Nazis a**?"
It is not natural for people to adopt these ways. People who generally feel accepted tend not to become members of hate organizations. These weren't popular people who suddenly decided to become outcasts. Had they been treated with basic human dignity, they would never have become Nazis.
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27-04-2002 07:27
). The guy in question was thrown out of school cose he falsified documents. Much more isnt known.
there.
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