28-04-2002 04:03									#31
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Yes. I always doubt the official version of things. If this happened in my country there'd be formal inquries at the very least, not just casual dismissal.

	28-04-2002 04:07									#32
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You mean there was an enquiry every time the SAS blew away an IRA terrorist?

	28-04-2002 04:15									#33
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Wrong country, honey. Sweden.

	28-04-2002 04:20									#34
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Ratz. I thought you were both UK.

In any event, if your country held an enquiry everytime a terrorist was killed by your police you'd be sillier than the Finns.

PS. I don't think even they are that silly.

	28-04-2002 04:29									#35
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It would be a whole lot simpler if we could see if he was dead in the picture with the bot. Anyone got the whole pic somewhere? I hate it when people make these "clarifications" without providing the originals.

Edit: even at the risk of starting a flamewar, I just have to say that I also hate it when people post emotional outbursts as arguments in matters where rational analysis is the only way of clearing up stuff. "Just end" indeed, "how would you feel" indeed, why the f@ck do we even bother if everything can be dismissed with self-righteous babble.
Not that I'm naming any names...

Last edited by Jaakko on 28-04-2002 at 04:37

	28-04-2002 04:35									#36
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The question is still open Snapcase.

If Sweden found itself with a terrorist problem and people were blowing up school children, would you still be disturbed by the photos? Would you be questioning the motives of your police? Honestly?

	28-04-2002 04:37									#37
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quote: Originally posted by Bugs ****ing Bunny As I wrote, we'll probably never know.

No,people like you know. You just lie to yourself and pull off stunts like this to spread your lies. I suppose the bot and bomb straps pictures where missing?

Or unless ; you didnt want to put them here for some reason?

	28-04-2002 04:41									#38
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quote: Originally posted by Jaakko It would be a whole lot simpler if we could see if he was dead in the picture with the bot. Anyone got the whole pic somewhere? I hate it when people make these "clarifications" without providing the originals. Edit: even at the risk of starting a flamewar, I just have to say that I also hate it when people post emotional outbursts as arguments in matters where rational analysis is the only way of clearing up stuff. "Just end" indeed, "how would you feel" indeed, why the f@ck do we even bother if everything can be dismissed with self-righteous babble. Not that I'm naming any names...

I'd say it's pretty clear that he's dead in the picture with the bot, because nobody is kneeling on his legs at that point.

	28-04-2002 04:48									#39
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A very good point, but now there'll always be doubt, since everyone is providing incomplete info to reinforce their case (not the posters, but those who originally made and forwarded the edited sets) . Reminds me of whatshisname in SMAC talking about those who withhold information...

	28-04-2002 04:54									#40
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quote: Originally posted by Jaakko It would be a whole lot simpler if we could see if he was dead in the picture with the bot. Anyone got the whole pic somewhere? I hate it when people make these "clarifications" without providing the originals.

Here is the entire series of pics for you.

	28-04-2002 04:57									#41
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Thanks, that's much better!

	28-04-2002 05:15									#42
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To state the obvious.

Look at the wheels in pics one and three - now compare it to the wheels of the vehicle in pic 4. Either someone replaced the chrome wheels, or it's a different car. Not only that, but the people arresting the guy are obviously different from pics three to four.

DDs pics, while giving a clearer picture also fail to show when exactly the new vehicle and other personnel arriived.

	28-04-2002 05:30									#43
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Seen those pics before, been shocked, debated them with Siro, not been convinced by his arguments...

	28-04-2002 06:38									#44
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As always....


Here's what Snopes has to say.


Which boils down to "Unless a unbiased news agency can get ALL the pictures, we'll never no"

	28-04-2002 08:08									#45
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I can't believe I hadn't heard of this before, since it's obviously created so many knotted shorts.

OK. Perfect. So everybody is going to read into them exactly what they want to. I admit, when I saw the first 5 posted by Bugs the fifth hit me like a 2-by-4.

Then the explanation was provided of the bomb. Sorry, absolutely zero sympathy from this corner for terrorists of any flavour.

Now it's an Israeli conspiracy to beguile me. Great. On what faith am I to take it that the police of a democratic country are perpetrating such crimes and coverups?

And again. If this were happening in your own country, would you be questioning the actions of your police? Would you believe them, or the other guys?

	28-04-2002 09:38									#46
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The truth is: if you claim to be from Israel or a staunch pro-Israeli, or if you are from Palestine (or any Arab nation) and are pro-Palestine, I can not believe a word you say.

Period.

	28-04-2002 09:41									#47
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quote: On what faith am I to take it that the police of a democratic country are perpetrating such crimes and coverups?

If you were an American, you wouldn't be saying this .

	28-04-2002 10:16									#48
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quote: Originally posted by Anunikoba The truth is: if you claim to be from Israel or a staunch pro-Israeli, or if you are from Palestine (or any Arab nation) and are pro-Palestine, I can not believe a word you say. Period.

Even about recipes for beef stroganov?

	28-04-2002 11:33									#49
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If you look at stage 5 closely, you see the dead body is lying on top of something, but that something wasn't what the cop was trying to remove in stage 4. In stage 4 the suspect was already on top of that something.

So what was it that the cops was trying to remove?

Also in stage 5, there appears no attachment between that something underneath and the dead body.

	28-04-2002 11:40									#50
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither Even about recipes for beef stroganov?

No!

	28-04-2002 12:09									#51
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quote: Originally posted by faded glory No,people like you know. You just lie to yourself and pull off stunts like this to spread your lies. I suppose the bot and bomb straps pictures where missing? Or unless ; you didnt want to put them here for some reason?

I suspected I'd get a response or two like that, even after posting disclaimers that I was wary of taking the pictures at face value.

On the site where I found those last night, those were the only pictures present. As anyone human would, I initially felt repulsed. Then I thought "Wait a minute....". That's why I posted them with the disclaimer that there was probably far more to them than meets the eye.

There are still inconsistencies I'm unsatisfied about- if they were trying to wrestle a detonator from his hand, why does everyone look so static? Why the struggle, when one good kick would have snapped his arm like a twig?

We'll probably never know, as I said. Still, if it got even one person to go to Amnesty International and start doing something productive about human rights (whichever side of the ME debate they're on) instead of just huffing and puffing on discussion boards then I'm happy with the results. That's the reason.

I can understand your reaction, and I'm not about to criticise it because it would be wrong of me to do so. I'll just clarify that as a true cynic, I'm pretty suspicious of both sides. I've never been a believer in the white hat/black hat approach.

	28-04-2002 12:22									#52
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quote: Originally posted by Bugs ****ing Bunny There are still inconsistencies I'm unsatisfied about- if they were trying to wrestle a detonator from his hand, why does everyone look so static? Why the struggle, when one good kick would have snapped his arm like a twig?

My guess is that a good swift kick would have accomplished the task, but the police were at the point where they said "Ah, **** this *******" and just shot the fellow to simplify matters. Probably impossible to substantiate as either appropriate or excessive use of force on the part of the cops, though, even for the Isreali internal affairs agency (whatever it's called).

	28-04-2002 12:58									#53
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quote: Originally posted by Bugs ****ing Bunny Why the struggle, when one good kick would have snapped his arm like a twig?

If he got a bomb vest strapped on his chest, wouldn't flipping him on his back solve the problem?

	28-04-2002 13:25									#54
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Naw... that would have been too smart, UR .

	28-04-2002 13:28									#55
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Yeah, I always love to have (suspected) suicide bombers laying on their backs in the middle of the open road.

What's to stop him from just pushing the detonator on his chest laying on his back, UR?

	28-04-2002 13:30									#56
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither And again. If this were happening in your own country, would you be questioning the actions of your police? Would you believe them, or the other guys?

Well we're doing a fair bit of questioning in the Bloody Sunday Enquiry.

	28-04-2002 13:33									#57
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Out of how many gunned down IRA members Bugs?

BTW, which Bloody Sunday is that? Actually I'm being honest here. What is being enquired about at this late date?

	28-04-2002 13:35									#58
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quote: What's to stop him from just pushing the detonator on his chest laying on his back, UR?

Israeli soliders pinning him down .

	28-04-2002 13:37									#59
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui Israeli soliders pinning him down .

You trust people like Eli to do their jobs properly?

	28-04-2002 13:39									#60
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Good point... I don't trust Eli to piss correctly.