28-04-2002 13:56									#61
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Bloody Sunday, event in (1972?) at which a number (12 or so?) peaceful demonstrators were killed by inept, ill-led and inexperienced Paras "because they thought they saw guns".

Look, nye, I'm not willing to trust the pigs no matter how bad the other side is. You always have to question authority- that's what freedom means, for ****s sake. If you blindly follow the official version of anything, let alone incidents where peoples' lives are taken, you're not doing your most basic duty as a citizen, to probe, to examine, to have republican spirit. The fact that where there are terrorists in 99 cases out of a hundred there is something underlying injustice means you have to ask: These are police, the enforcers of the unjust state. Do I trust them to carry out justice? To pick out only those of the mistreated who have gone to extreme measures? Since they're part of the matrix of ill-treatment themselves, do I trust them to suddenly become paragons of duty and fairness when it comes to picking out subjects? Hell no. Terrorism or no terrorism, the police constantly pick on the weakest members of society or those who dare to have a voice. Are you telling me there's no bias against palestinians whatsoever? That they wouldn't rather shoot first and ask questions later? And yet the threat of this tumbling of democratic values is lesser than the threat of one guilty man not being summarily executed?

You want to live in a police state. I want to live in a liberal democracy.

	28-04-2002 14:06									#62
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I want to live in a world where school children don't get blown up by the latest loon with a cause.

I want to live in a world where air planes don't get driven into buildings.

I am very hesitant to question the motives of those who are protecting a state which has been at war against agressors for the last 54 years.

You can call me old school, but I look first at where the issue arose from, to then arrive at where to assign responsibilty.

	28-04-2002 14:09									#63
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Surely the issue arose from the illegal occupation of Palestinian lands in 1948 and the constant imperialist oppression since?

	28-04-2002 14:14									#64
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That's an intersting interpretation, since there was no Palestinian state in 1947.

	28-04-2002 14:16									#65
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And now we start all over again...

	28-04-2002 14:20									#66
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Sate vs. Lands, mate. Palestinians occupied some 70% of what is today Israel and the Occupied territories under British "protection". They rejected the most ridicuous partition plan ever that would have given them 30% of the least arable lands, wheupon the Zionists decided that they would enforce it anyway, took power and drove the Palestinians out.

	28-04-2002 14:26									#67
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That's getting to be a really interesting interpretation, since the entire Arab world declared war on Israel long before the Palestinians ever thought they had anything to b*tch about.

	28-04-2002 14:28									#68
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quote: That's getting to be a really interesting interpretation, since the entire Arab world declared war on Israel long before the Palestinians ever thought they had anything to b*tch about.

Covering your eyes with your hands and not looking is a really good way to go about decieving yourself.

Very good..

	28-04-2002 14:30									#69
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What was that Imran? Did you have any information about a Palestinian uprising in 1948 that all the Arab states came to the rescue of with the purest of intentions?

	28-04-2002 14:31									#70
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Saying that the Palestinians didn't ***** before the Arabs declared war is such revisionist history, I'm suprised they let you into a school!

	28-04-2002 14:38									#71
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Where is your history Imran, other than in your histrionics?

	28-04-2002 14:41									#72
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I think a good first step to solve the conflict would be the banning of Eli. Who agrees?

Apart from that, I must say some veerry interesting suggestions have been made on this thread as t ohow to deal with a captured man. Sometimes it seems the Israeli security forces (may those be police, army, whatever) have absolutely no clue how to deal with living people. Must be they're trained on shooting anyone with a non-European teint on sight.

	28-04-2002 15:01									#73
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Where is your history Imran

http://encarta.msn.com/find/concise...558705&sid=3#s3

quote: The Palestinians, on the other hand, had never recovered from the Arab revolt, and most of their leaders were in exile. The Mufti of Jerusalem, their principal spokesman, refused to accept Jewish statehood. When the UN proposed partition in November 1947, he rejected the plan while the Jews accepted it. In the military struggle that followed, the Palestinians were defeated. Terrorism was used on both sides. The state of Israel was established on May 14, 1948. Five Arab armies, coming to the aid of the Palestinians, immediately attacked it. Israeli forces defeated the Arab armies, and Israel enlarged its territory. Jordan took the West Bank of the Jordan River, and Egypt took the Gaza Strip.

The Pals fought BEFORE the state of Israel was declared. Here is your humble pie... I hope you enjoy it .

	28-04-2002 15:04									#74
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Good Imran, you have a point.

Now how do we get to blowing up children as being justified?

	28-04-2002 15:06									#75
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Nice try to redirect, but the fact remains is that you were wrong in response to Snapcase. So, respond to his point again (without falsities) and then I'll respond to yours .

	28-04-2002 15:12									#76
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No, the whole thing has been a redirect from my real point...

That is, if you tolerate terrorism directed at civilians in Tel Aviv then it is only a matter of time before it comes to Cairo, and Delhi, and London, and Tokyo, and New York, and Stockholm eventually.

	28-04-2002 15:14									#77
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Which is a redirect from the fact that Israeli troops don't care for human life and would rather kill Palestinians that arrest them.

And, as for your answer... one of the only responses to brutal colonial occupation and oppression.

	28-04-2002 15:19									#78
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Let me put that in bold contrat you sad sack of ****.

'how do we get to blowing up children as being justified?'

"one of the only responses to brutal colonial occupation and oppression"

I'm done with you buddy. Rot in your own swill.

	28-04-2002 15:22									#79
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People know that I don't necessarily care that others find my support of Palestinian actions to be repulsive. You simply look at the world as a nice place. Sorry to explode your idealistic, wide-eyed, rose colored look at the world, but it ain't all nice.

Of course it is ironic that this repulsion comes from a Westerner... who's culture have used terrorism many times in past, and not just under colonial occupation (though the US did).

What are you actually opposed to, killing of civilians?! Like no one else has ever done it (and justified it).

	28-04-2002 15:39									#80
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui Which is a redirect from the fact that Israeli troops don't care for human life and would rather kill Palestinians that arrest them.

Then why almost 5000 Palestinians were arrested during Defensive Shield? And only ~200 were killed, most of them in battles?

	28-04-2002 18:20									#81
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on a side note , you really shouldn't compare Israeli soldiers with Eli. after all , he will never become one.

sorry eli, this troll was too good to be wasted.

*runs*

	28-04-2002 19:09									#82
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quote: Originally posted by Snapcase Sate vs. Lands, mate. Palestinians occupied some 70% of what is today Israel and the Occupied territories under British "protection". They rejected the most ridicuous partition plan ever that would have given them 30% of the least arable lands, wheupon the Zionists decided that they would enforce it anyway, took power and drove the Palestinians out.

It was 40%, and they were some of the most arable. The Israelis were the ones saddled with the Negev desert.

	28-04-2002 19:23									#83
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actually, to be extremely correct, the partition plan was 55% to the jews , and 45% to the arabs, with jerusalem a small portion that I didn't include in the percentage.

The jews got the negev desert , wich around half of the territory of western palestine.

check your data.

	28-04-2002 19:46									#84
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I was told the UN plan had the Jews in favour, with more arable land and such... now this is a little confusing...

	28-04-2002 20:24									#85
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The Arabs got the western Galilee, which is quite arable, the Galilee region has more rainfall than most of the rest of the country. They also got the West Bank and lands around it, which have been the population center for the whole country since biblical times, and which still holds half the Palestinian population west of the Jordan river. It's quite arable, just ask Arafat about the olive groves, or the settlers who all have rather nice gardens.

	28-04-2002 21:33									#86
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It really disturbs me when I see people posting about the 'evil' police. I'd like to point out - They're people too! Wow, what a concept. They're not just these weird human looking things that are policemen. They really are humans. They probably don't enjoy killing in most cases. They also fear for their life at times. Now, why do you insist on having the distinction between police and everyone else? They're human just like you.

	28-04-2002 21:36									#87
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Will do, Natan. As soon as Imran's heroic freedom fighters cease and desist targeting passive civilians who are passing through.

Imran, the key difference between Israel and Palestine is whether or not they target civilians. However, since you have a knee-jerk reaction that tells you "Israel bad, Palestinian good," I won't waste the time or effort to try and explain it to you. To be quite honest, nobody should consider gunmen storming into homes and spraying them with automatic weapons fire to be acceptable, and then criticize the Israelis for shooting a suicide bomber that was trying to set off an explosive vest.

I am personally amazed at how much crap the pro-Israelis on this forum take. You all have been really good sports putting up with the pro-terrorists.

	28-04-2002 21:40									#88
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It is very interesting that selectively posting only some, but not all, of a series of pictures of an event can transform an act of heroism into and act of murder. No wonder the Arab world is inflamed.

Ned

	28-04-2002 21:51									#89
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It certainly is. Then again, maybe it wasn't an act of heroism either.

We'll probably never know. I think I've stopped taking anything on the subject as face value, at any rate.

	28-04-2002 22:22									#90
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Bugs, It would be interesting for folks on the Internet to see the propaganda published by the Allies against the Germans in both WWI and WWII. I saw one "patriotic" USSR movie that showed invading German troops throwing babies into bonfires.

Ned