29-04-2002 11:08									#61
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I heard on the radio today and interview Charle Garrault(sp?) had with two Muslim girls who grew up in the United States. They both believed that strapping on a bomb and killing Israeli's was "good" that the girls who did this to Israeli's would enter Paradise.

These are Americans for gods sake!

How in the world is this violence ever going to stop with the "oppressed" Muslims in the United States being taught to hate.

Ned

	29-04-2002 11:08									#62
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quote: Originally posted by Urban Ranger So, are the Germans contesting this? Is there a conflict between the two countries? Are Russians actively building settlements while the Germans protesting against these? Are the Russians treating the Germans like second class citizens?

As far as I know, the majority of the German population was forcibly removed when the Russians took over. What you would call "ethnic cleansing". The small German minority that remains doesn't get mentioned much, IIRC. I think that there have been discussions between the Germans and the Russians about it, but I can't remember for sure off hand. I just wanted to remind people that many other groups have been screwed throughout history but didn't resort to killing little girls in their homes.

	29-04-2002 11:11									#63
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quote: Originally posted by CyberGnu Dino, the girl didn't deserve to die, but it is not the fault of the palestinians.

What's the difference if her death was justified or deserved? The arguements are still the same and thier truth value isn't helped either way.

BTW, the very same Geneva Convention you are bringing up against the Israelis bans the form of attack the Palestinians are using against them. The laws of war also make no exceptions for either the agressor or defender.

	29-04-2002 11:11									#64
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quote: Originally posted by Drake Tungsten As far as I know, the majority of the German population was forcibly removed when the Russians took over. What you would call "ethnic cleansing". The small German minority that remains doesn't get mentioned much, IIRC. I think that there have been discussions between the Germans and the Russians about it, but I can't remember for sure off hand. I just wanted to remind people that many other groups have been screwed throughout history but didn't resort to killing little girls in their homes.

Sorry Drake, but facts like these don't fit people's agendas.

	29-04-2002 11:12									#65
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quote: Originally posted by nationalist What's the legal basis for aggressive war? The Israelis payed for that land with blood, and deserve to keep it. There are numerous precedents for their occupation, but the one that sticks in my mind right now is the land that the U.S.S.R. grabbed after WW2. The Soviets were attacked, successfully fought off the Nazis, and pushed back with an offensive of their own. They kept the land conquered during that offensive (either directly or through satellite states).

Another example is Peuto Rico.

Ned

	29-04-2002 11:13									#66
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quote: Maybe the Germans in that area should start killing Russian settlers?

And if they did, the US would be 100% behind them.

	29-04-2002 11:15									#67
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quote: Another example is Peuto Rico.

Um.. no. We actually received Puerto Rico and the Phillipines in a treaty with Spain concluded at the end of the Spanish-American War.

	29-04-2002 11:17									#68
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quote: Originally posted by CyberGnu The legal basis for it is the geneva conventions. I think it is the fifth amendment, but I'm not entirely sure. Brief history: WW1: great horror and suffering post-WW1: the leaders of the major powers in the world sat down to ensure that a second WW could not happen. the basic premise: aggression is not a valid way to expand. Two factions emerged. The faction advocating policying the world with treaties won out. WW2: Germany shows how much those treaties were worth. Great suffering and horror. post-WW2: the leaders of most of the world sit down again, this time affirming that aggression should be met with active resistance.

Great example. Current international law banning aggression is as applicable to the real world as the Kellogg-Briand pact.

	29-04-2002 11:18									#69
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quote: Originally posted by Urban Ranger IIRC, neither Germany and Japan were occupied for any extended period of time.

East Germany was officially occupied until the Red Army pulled out in 1990. The Allies didn't allow an armed force in the West until 1956. The British, Americans and French were still active in internal German developments in the 1960s.

Japan regained sovereignty in 1951, by the Peace of San Francisco.

You may note that the right of conquest lasts so long as the occupier deems fit. In the case of West Germany and Japan, the Allies stayed for as long as they felt necessary to ensure their interests in those countries.

The Israelis are behaving in the same manner. When Egypt agreed to peace, they received territory back. When peace was made with Jordan, some consessions were granted. If the Palestinians would stop blowing up people and places in Israel, then maybe the Israelis would agree to some more permanent settlement with them.

	29-04-2002 11:19									#70
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quote: Originally posted by Drake Tungsten Great example. Current international law banning aggression is as applicable to the real world as the Kellogg-Briand pact.

What do you mean as applicable as the K-B pact? It outlawed war you know. And thanks to that wonderful treaty there hasn't been a war since 1927!

	29-04-2002 11:20									#71
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Also remember, that the Israeli's took the land from the Jordanians and the Egyptians, who in turn took the land from the "Palestinians" provisional government in 1948 as the British withdrew. That land has never, ever, in the whole history of time been "Palestinian." Ned

	29-04-2002 11:21									#72
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither The Israelis are behaving in the same manner. When Egypt agreed to peace, they received territory back. When peace was made with Jordan, some consessions were granted. If the Palestinians would stop blowing up people and places in Israel, then maybe the Israelis would agree to some more permanent settlement with them.

Araft and the rest of his peace loving cronies don't want a settlement, they want a pile of dead Israelis. Look at the peace offered by Barak before this intifada started. He was going to give the Palestinains nearly everything they wanted. Arafat turned it down...

	29-04-2002 11:21									#73
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quote: Also remember, that the Israeli's took the land from the Jordanians and the Egyptians, who in turn took the land from the "Palestinians" provisional government in 1948 as the British withdrew. That land has never, ever, in the whole history of time been "Palestinian."

So no people lived there before the Zionist invasion?

	29-04-2002 11:22									#74
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quote: Look at the peace offered by Barak before this intifada started. He was going to give the Palestinains nearly everything they wanted.

BS! And one of the biggest myths ever put forward... it has been struck down time and time again on this forum. Dividing Palestine into enclaves isn't really 'everything they wanted'

	29-04-2002 11:24									#75
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui So no people lived there before the Zionist invasion?

People did live there. It was populated by Jews and Syrian Arabs...

	29-04-2002 11:24									#76
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui So no people lived there before the Zionist invasion?

Yeah. They were called Brits Before that, wasn't the land controlled by Turks? There hasn't been an independant Palestine, but there have been Palestinians. However, the Palestinains aren't going to get any sympathy as long as they use their teenage suicide bombers.

	29-04-2002 11:26									#77
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quote: Originally posted by CyberGnu notyou, the difference is that the palestinians did not go into the settlement to specifically kill that girl. They went in there to kill settlers, which they are considering combatants without uniform. The girl was killed during the raid. And so the problem remains: The settlers are not the victims here. The girl was, and the party culpable for her death are her parents.

My position is based on a belief that nothing justifies the act of skulking around in civvies (or the other side's uniforms) and killing civilians. I will never agree to any excuse for it, and I will never blame the victims.

	29-04-2002 11:34									#78
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quote: It was populated by Jews and Syrian Arabs

Mostly Arabs, who were brutally forced to leave... some were massacred, others left by fear. The land was stolen!

quote: However, the Palestinains aren't going to get any sympathy as long as they use their teenage suicide bombers.

Perhaps not, but it is all they have left.

	29-04-2002 11:35									#79
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Hmmm. I think both Gandhi and Mandela acheived their goals a long time ago.

	29-04-2002 11:39									#80
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Drake, i don't think you got the point.

Merely saying that aggression is not tolerated does not bring peace.

But acting on it, like the US did in quwait, does. Unfortunately, the US is solidly behind the aggressor in this conflict...

	29-04-2002 11:44									#81
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Dino, I actually haven't mentioned deserved or justified. But however you feel about the girls death, the fact remains that it is her parents that are to blame. I think you believe as me, that the death of a young girl is a horrible thing, but I don't see you posting about how her parents should be sent to jail.

	29-04-2002 11:46									#82
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui Mostly Arabs, who were brutally forced to leave... some were massacred, others left by fear. The land was stolen!

What's your point? It's not like this sort of thing has never happened before. Jews in Arab states at the same time were treated in the same way. Luckily for them, Israel was willing to accept the Jewish refugees into their country. The Arab states, OTOH, treated their fellow Arabs like **** and left them in refugee camps. Yet you would have us believe that all the problems faced by the Palestinians today are Israel's fault.

Anyway, I feel for the Arabs kicked out of Palestine in 1948. I also feel for the Jews who were expelled from Arab states at that time. Both groups got caught up in a greater conflict and got screwed. However, you can't spend all of eternity being pissed off by what happened to your ancestors. The Arabs tried several times to destroy Israel and take back Palestine, but they failed. Israel is here to stay and the Pals need to accept that. Violence will get them nothing. If they turn to peaceful measures, however, they will probably get their own state. They won't get everything they want, but that's what happens when you're on the losing side of a conflict. It's time to put aside the hatred and dreams about the destruction of Israel. Now is the time for the Pals to cooperate with their Jewish neighbors.

	29-04-2002 11:48									#83
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notyou: just to clarify things
You do support putting on a uniform and killing civilians?
You do support invading other countries, killing the inhabitants and taking their land, as long as you are strong enough to withstand the opposition?

BTW, you are blaming the victims here... Unless I'm misinterpreting your posts completely. The victims in this particular situation are the girl and the palestinians. The girl was killed, and the palestinains got their land stolen.

So by blaming the palestinians for fighting back, you are actually blaming the victims...

	29-04-2002 11:53									#84
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Drake, the palestinians have accepted the existance of Israel. It was part of the Oslo treaty, signed over a decade ago. The problem is that Barak actually offered them less in his 'generous' offer at Camp David than what they were supposed to get from the Oslo...


And you wonder why they are disillusionised by israels eternal mantra of 'security first, land second'. They know from hard experience that it actually means 'security now, and the longer we can string out the situation the more idiots in the world will fall for the argument that the palestinians should look to the future and not the past'.

	29-04-2002 11:55									#85
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quote: Israel is here to stay and the Pals need to accept that. Violence will get them nothing

It got them this far, didn't it? I mean, the world didn't give two shits about Palestine before the bombings and shootings.

quote: Now is the time for the Pals to cooperate with their Jewish neighbors.

When the Jews cooperate with them as well. After Rabin it all collapsed. Barak's offer was totally laughable (and seeing how besieged he was in Israel at the time, little chance of his plan being passed).

	29-04-2002 11:55									#86
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quote: Originally posted by CyberGnu Drake, i don't think you got the point. Merely saying that aggression is not tolerated does not bring peace. But acting on it, like the US did in quwait, does. Unfortunately, the US is solidly behind the aggressor in this conflict...

My point was that legalistic bullshit works great on paper, but when applied to the real world it falls apart. Israel is the perfect example of this. You classify Israel as the agressor, but it isn't nearly as black and white as you would like it to be. If you look solely at Israel and the occupied territories, then Israel does indeed seem to be the agressor. However, if you expand your view of the conflict to include the Arab states that are still at war with Israel, then the occupation of the West Bank looks like a defensive measure. So which is it? Is Israel the agressor or the defender in this whole thing? In truth, they are both at the same time. So how do your precious international laws handle this confused situation? The complexities of the real world make any sort of law inapplicable in certain situations. The morality of a situation always depends on the circumstances surrounding the situation. Belief in absolute morality, whether in the form of international law or religious dogma, only helps to fuel this horrible conflict.

	29-04-2002 11:56									#87
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quote: So how do your precious international laws handle this confused situation?

Well, it does say that the building of settlements in occupied territory is illegal under the Geneva Convention.

	29-04-2002 12:01									#88
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui quote: So how do your precious international laws handle this confused situation? Well, it does say that the building of settlements in occupied territory is illegal under the Geneva Convention.

International law also says that the killing of non-combatants is illegal. Neither side has the moral high ground in this deal.

	29-04-2002 12:02									#89
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui quote: It was populated by Jews and Syrian Arabs Mostly Arabs, who were brutally forced to leave... some were massacred, others left by fear. The land was stolen! quote: However, the Palestinains aren't going to get any sympathy as long as they use their teenage suicide bombers. Perhaps not, but it is all they have left.

Imran, I can clearly see why you are anti-Israeli. You really believe Palestinian propaganda.

Palestine for several years was a war zone. People flee war zones. In fact, the Arab nations encouraged it to avoid casualties.

To my knowledge, the Israeli's never massacred civilian populations. In fact, in some cases, they warned civilians that an attack on an Arab position was coming in order that they flee and not be killed.

You also have to consider that the Palestinians started the war with a view to wiping out the Jews. Co-existence, accepted by Israel, has never been accepted by the Palestinians - even to this day.

I don't know what your precise position today on the conflict. However, given your tone, I suspect you are another ethnic cleanser, aren't you?

Ned

	29-04-2002 12:04									#90
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quote: I don't know of any specific convention that allows for the retention of land aquired during a defensive war, but I don't think that there is one prohibiting it either. Plenty of historical precedent for the retention of the land. Alsace-Lorainne to France after WW1 is another example

Retaining territory captured in war is not illegal; deliberately altering the ethnic makeup of the inhabitants of that territory (through deportation, genocide, settlement-building or any other method) is, and has been since the Geneva Treaties of 1946 were signed. IIRC, this is why Israeli settlements have been specifically denounced as illegal by the UN.