29-04-2002 19:21									#121
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In Hebron, IDF soldiers killed one of the gunmen who conducted the murders in Adora.

	29-04-2002 19:57									#122
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quote: Originally posted by Urban Ranger So, are the Germans contesting this? Is there a conflict between the two countries? Are Russians actively building settlements while the Germans protesting against these? Are the Russians treating the Germans like second class citizens?

Oops, I was proven wrong and can't properly defend myself.

Quick! Look over there!!!

	29-04-2002 19:59									#123
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quote: Originally posted by DaShi Oops, I was proven wrong and can't properly defend myself. Quick! Look over there!!!

3

	29-04-2002 20:02									#124
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CyberGnu, We all might consider how Wilson's new ideas about "self-determination" of peoples factored into the equation. I believe the Jewish goal of statehood began after WWI, IIRC.

This doctrine seems peculiarly American. We somewhat lived by it when we revolted from England. We did not when we put down the rebellion of the South.

But, CyberGnu, you have to remember that the land in question was governed by Turkey for 400+ years prior to 1917. After the War, the Brits and French divided up the conquered territories. The Arabs got most. They thought they were going to get lower Syria, but the Brits kept that and called it Palestine. Later, just as you said, when the final disposition took place, the UN, divided the "mandate," i.e., the territories liberated from Turkey, between the Jews and the local Arabs according to population.

Ned

	29-04-2002 20:03									#125
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc 3

actually, I haven't looked in this thread yet.

	29-04-2002 21:30									#126
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Having read many of the posts, I like to remember the sad loss of an infant's life, throught the acts of criminals that deserve to be taken, judged and condemned. Most of all, I would like to hear, from muslim religious leaders, but especially from the Palestinian Authority that those who commit such crimes are not martires but criminals and are bound to stand condemned by Men and by Allah.
I would like to hear them remember that even the Koran oposes the killing of children. As such, not even a fundamentalist biggot may find confort in his biased understanding of the will of the God he claims to worship.

quote: Originally posted by Lonestar Five year old Danielle Shefi, apperently a legitimate target for the brave Palestinian fighters.

Danielle Shefi was never a legitimate target, and her grieving parents are, now, among the victims of the insanity that seems not to weaken in that land.

To Gnu: under your reasoning, it would be accepted to kill the children of any soldier, or otherwize to blame him/her for fighting. Is that what you mean?

quote: Originally posted by Lonestar I hope, hope, hope, Bush get's off Sharon's case and lets him do what needs doing.

This is the kind of over-reaction that serves noone but the warmongers themselves.

As many pointed out, by now, no side has any moral high ground.
A balanced position must be critical to both sides and must continuously propose the possibility of settlement, even when there is no imediate hope of compromise.
I, for one, have great hope on the UN's latest proposals.

The only thing Sharon needs to do is stop creating even more obstacles to a Peace process. The more Bush preasures him to
do this, the better.

	29-04-2002 23:43									#127
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Ecowiz, Who are going to arrest the murderers of Danielle Shefi other than the IDF? Ned

	30-04-2002 01:08									#128
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quote: A nation created from a British mandate due to an edict of the UN is not legal?

No, it isn't legal because of the edict to take effect both sides had to agree. It was a non-binding edict, therefore, the Arabs living there did not have to accept it. And since they didn't, the state of Israel was formed through non-legal means.

	30-04-2002 01:10									#129
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui And since they didn't, the state of Israel was formed through non-legal means.

Since when do you care about international law?

	30-04-2002 01:11									#130
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quote: Since when do you care about international law?

Well, since my opponents in argument is bringing it up . Smack him down with that he is backing.

	30-04-2002 01:14									#131
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui Well, since my opponents in argument is bringing it up . Smack him down with that he is backing.

Yes, but it opens your side up to legalistic attacks as well. It would be better to simply say that you don't care international law as it relates to this conflict because it allows you to avoid the Geneva Conventions prohibitions against the purposeful murder of civilians.

	30-04-2002 01:27									#132
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quote: Originally posted by David Floyd I think you'd take exception to some foreign settlers plopping down fortified settlements on your land, too. Besides, I'm quite sure the Israelis have killed kids before.

Would you also kill girls like this, David?

	30-04-2002 01:31									#133
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quote: Originally posted by Jules What is the "USS Liberty Incident?" Thanks.

Check out this site. http://www.ussliberty.org/

My father, a career naval officer who served in the Med thought the attack was deliberate (because of how it happened in terms of tactical details.) He was not a conspiracy theorist.

	30-04-2002 01:36									#134
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quote: Originally posted by GP Would you also kill girls like this, David?

He's a brave warrior, GP.

	30-04-2002 01:48									#135
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GP and Imran, I notice both of you have been members since 1969. How is this possible? Ned

	30-04-2002 01:48									#136
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I don't see any connection between a peoples' right to an own state and some arseholes losing control over their minds and shooting not only innocents but more than that namely their children. They should be punished severely, so should the responsibles behind it. If Arafat is one of them, so should he. But that doesn't give a reason to destroy the necessary civilian infrastructure for creating a Palestinian state nor does it justify blind slaughter in camps full of civilians (or streets where terrorists are suspected within crowds).

So it's all about looking at the whole picture instead of painting black and white. Though I understand people like to paint in black and white. It must be a lot easier, especially when you have many that share your opinion based on that. But it doesn't work like that, and enlightened and sophisticated people just don't paint in black and white. So everyone think about sense and nonsense and realize the ministry fo reducation is not linked to terracts against children, and if they abuse that ministry for their structure, do something about it. Without destroying educaitonal data about schools and kindergartens. Me missing something important (generic rhetorical question)?

Ned - they joined before 10-02-1999, and instead of "b. 10-02-1999" it reads "Jan 1970" or "Dec 1969" nowadays, depending on your time zone. You'll find the internet wasn't quite in such a popular state back in '70

	30-04-2002 01:54									#137
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quote: Originally posted by KrazyHorse I believe you might be referring to the old maxim that two wrongs don't make a right. I agree with that. The Palestinians cannot justify their crimes by pointing at the Israelis, and vice-versa.

Too bad other people don't feel this way.


I do think that your suggestion that the armed settlers are legit targets might create a problem for them. They are in a Catch 22.

They have to arm themselves because they are targeted.

But because they arm themselves they are considered targets.


Honestly folks, I wouldn't be raising my kids there and I wouldn't trust a Palastinenian to come within a mile of my kids either. Not there or not in Tel Aviv. Before you say that is racist, I just say look at the news.

I would move. Pride be damned, I don't want my kids in that enviroment.

	30-04-2002 02:24									#138
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quote: Originally posted by Ecthelion nor does it justify blind slaughter in camps full of civilians (or streets where terrorists are suspected within crowds).

Why dont you go and read the history of your country, instead of spewing blood libels?

	30-04-2002 02:34									#139
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What does the middle east conflict have to do with the history of my country? Does Israel have such a bad conscious that you just don't listen to others anymore, especially not if you can cry out reproaches about "the past" and "the history"? If it has nothing to do with you being worked up about immoral acting of your country, then what exactly is the connection between the history of my country and this topic? And why is it you search other people's posts for single points that are well for making a reproach of inbstead of replying to the whole post? Maybe because you have no idea what to say and therefore just shout out accusations? That would be rather sad, so justify yourself.

	30-04-2002 02:38									#140
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Ned, Apolyton has several predecessor sites. One was the old ARPAnet BBS for military strategy discussions. I just migrated here when it was discontinued in 1997.

	30-04-2002 02:42									#141
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Yep, that must be it GP

	30-04-2002 02:43									#142
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quote: Originally posted by Ecthelion What does the middle east conflict have to do with the history of my country? Does Israel have such a bad conscious that you just don't listen to others anymore, especially not if you can cry out reproaches about "the past" and "the history"? If it has nothing to do with you being worked up about immoral acting of your country, then what exactly is the connection between the history of my country and this topic?

The connection is that if you had known your country's history you should've learned by now what blood libels lead to.

quote: And why is it you search other people's posts for single points that are well for making a reproach of inbstead of replying to the whole post? Maybe because you have no idea what to say and therefore just shout out accusations? That would be rather sad, so justify yourself.

Umm...We're talking about you here. I never realized your posts had even a single point, not to mention numerous ones.

	30-04-2002 02:47									#143
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Now that made perfect sense. Go away now, I want to discuss these matters with sophisticated persons. Too bad there's only you and Americans here these days, but it shouldn't take too long until your friend returns and tells us army stories. Until then, you can polish my shoes.

(His point was "Your country has been bad in the past so stop telling me what is right. You're inferior because you have bad history." Therefore, Eli's pretty much a racist.)

	30-04-2002 02:53									#144
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quote: Originally posted by Ecthelion (His point was "Your country has been bad in the past so stop telling me what is right. You're inferior because you have bad history." Therefore, Eli's pretty much a racist.)

Is there something wrong with your English Herr Vick?

"nor does it justify blind slaughter in camps full of civilians (or streets where terrorists are suspected within crowds). "

Or do you see any advice on how to stop the situation in this sentence? I hope you have time left before your English exams...

	30-04-2002 02:55									#145
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the white jacket for Ilya, please

	30-04-2002 03:28									#146
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quote: I do think that your suggestion that the armed settlers are legit targets might create a problem for them. They are in a Catch 22. They have to arm themselves because they are targeted. But because they arm themselves they are considered targets

Maybe, but you move into a fortified compound in occupied territory and arm yourself, then you've volunteered yourself into what I'd consider a citizens' militia. If a settler doesn't want to volunteer for this then he shouldn't have volunteered to become part of an ongoing war crime. Settlers' unarmed families are still not valid military targets any more than the families of IDF members are, but like it or not the compound as a whole is. If they really cared about their kids then they wouldn't have decided to bring them to live in the barracks with them. That's just plain stupid.

And no, Imran, that doesn't mean it's okay to creep into their house and unload a few bullets into the wife and kids.

	30-04-2002 03:32									#147
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quote: GP and Imran, I notice both of you have been members since 1969. How is this possible?

We've mastered time travel .

quote: Yes, but it opens your side up to legalistic attacks as well.

Well yes, but I just couldn't resist the jab back .

After all, the victors assaults on the Geneva Convention are always covered up, so they hold no meaning.

	30-04-2002 03:34									#148
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quote: Originally posted by KrazyHorse And no, Imran, that doesn't mean it's okay to creep into their house and unload a few bullets into the wife and kids.

He'll disagree with you.

	30-04-2002 03:47									#149
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I know. Just like Eli thinks that settlements are right and necessary, and that (to paraphrase him) the Arabs are lucky that Israel doesn't decide to annex all of Biblical Israel and fill it with their own seed.

	30-04-2002 03:50									#150
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quote: Originally posted by KrazyHorse Maybe, but you move into a fortified compound in occupied territory and arm yourself, then you've volunteered yourself into what I'd consider a citizens' militia. If a settler doesn't want to volunteer for this then he shouldn't have volunteered to become part of an ongoing war crime. Settlers' unarmed families are still not valid military targets any more than the families of IDF members are, but like it or not the compound as a whole is. If they really cared about their kids then they wouldn't have decided to bring them to live in the barracks with them. That's just plain stupid. And no, Imran, that doesn't mean it's okay to creep into their house and unload a few bullets into the wife and kids.

Like I said. I wouldn't have my kids there to begin with. But the way things are going, they wouldn't too safe anywhere in Israel.