07-05-2002 07:01									#31
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quote: Originally posted by David Floyd Sorry, it doesn't work that way. They can't be blamed for taking the easy way out of adverse, even deadly consequences. But to turn around and imprison them or execute them for what they did is bullshit, because it effectively says "You're ****ed no matter what you do". How is that OK?

Suggested Reading: Franz Stangl's story in "Into That Darkness"

Besides, this doesn't relate to Nuremburg. The men tried at Nuremburg weren't damned if they didn't. We're talking about Goering, Goebbels, Von Ribbentrop...these were the ARCHITECHTS of the Holocaust. They weren't acting under orders, they were GIVING them. The damned-damned argument holds no water for these men. And many, I'd wager most of those who participated in the Holocaust (and they represented many nationalities), down to the camp guards, did their duty willingly.

At any rate, the notion of national sovereignity are arbitrary human artifices that are coming down all the time, so why should something as fictitious as nationality prevent one from being charged for a very real and horrible crime?

	07-05-2002 07:09									#32
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david f.
so by your reasoning,there's no difference inbetween the 'crimes' of Himmler and Dontitz?

Boris, don't forget Donitz was sentenced at Nuremburg

	07-05-2002 07:12									#33
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quote: Besides, this doesn't relate to Nuremburg. The men tried at Nuremburg weren't damned if they didn't. We're talking about Goering, Goebbels, Von Ribbentrop...these were the ARCHITECHTS of the Holocaust. They weren't acting under orders, they were GIVING them.

Yes, and Hitler DIDN'T have a history of executing those who opposed him or could become threats, even his friends and/or advisors. Ernst Roehm, for example, CERTAINLY wasn't killed by Hitler, nor was Erwin Rommel.

Also, Gustav Krupp was charged, as were Wilhelm Keitel and Erich Raeder. The first was an industrialist and the latter two a field marshall and grand admiral, respectively.

Other examples of people convicted who were in no position to give initial orders included Martin Bormann, Karl Doenitz, Walther Funk, Alfred Jodl, Fritz Sauckel, Baldur von Shirach, and Julius Strecher.

Further, in 12 cases following Nuremburg, a further 185 individuals were indicted, none of whom were major politicians who gave orders, only 35 of whom were acquitted.

quote: And many, I'd wager most of those who participated in the Holocaust (and they represented many nationalities), down to the camp guards, did their duty willingly.

How's that relevant? Willing or not, refusal would have been, shall we say, not good for them.

	07-05-2002 07:13									#34
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quote: so by your reasoning,there's no difference inbetween the 'crimes' of Himmler and Dontitz?

Neither committed legal crimes, and only Himmler committed moral crimes, which frankly should not be judged or punished, especially when what he did was legal.

	07-05-2002 07:19									#35
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Law is morality, David.

	07-05-2002 07:22									#36
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David, David, David --- what to do about David??

Your position about Nazis and their crimes is the looniest I have seen yet.


As for the International Criminal Court, I would be in favor of the United States becoming part of this. This would be one step forward in undoing United State's reputation of international hypocrisy and double standards.

Is the United States the only one guilty of international hypocrisy and double standards? No -- that is not what I said, so don't go ahead and say that I thought that.

But since the United States is the world power, it needs to set a more powerful example by beginning to undo its hypocrisy and double standards.

	07-05-2002 07:24									#37
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Imran,

quote: Law is morality, David.

So a law saying you can walk up and shoot me would be moral?

MF,

quote: Your position about Nazis and their crimes is the looniest I have seen yet.

I love how people call me a loon but don't address my points. At least Imran is doing that much.

	07-05-2002 07:27									#38
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I may not agree with DF's opinions on the matter but I can certainly agree with his conclusion on this matter. The US is better of being rid of the World Court.

	07-05-2002 07:27									#39
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quote: So a law saying you can walk up and shoot me would be moral?

To someone it is. All law is morality which is written down for others to follow.

quote: I love how people call me a loon but don't address my points.

People call Nazis loons and don't address their points. Sometimes it just isn't worth it to debate delusional people... but I have nothing else to do.

	07-05-2002 07:28									#40
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in a nutshell, either the American government has something to hide, or it knows it will have something to hide soon!!

give it 12 months(for the **** to hit the fan), and then see how the American goverment would have fared in Nuremburg? (Hypothetically,like)

	07-05-2002 07:28									#41
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quote: I may not agree with DF's opinions on the matter but I can certainly agree with his conclusion on this matter. The US is better of being rid of the World Court.

I disagree totally. A permanent Court set up to deal with genocide, mass murder, war crimes, etc., is much more efficient and cost effective that setting up random tribunals when we feel we must. After all, one of our complaints against the UN is the inefficiency... well let's put our money where our mouth is.

	07-05-2002 07:33									#42
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quote: To someone it is. All law is morality which is written down for others to follow.

Just because someone thinks an unjustified killing is moral doesn't make it so - I daresay YOU'RE loony if you disagree

quote: People call Nazis loons and don't address their points.

Maybe they should. I wouldn't call a Nazi a loon, I'd just debate their arguments and positions.

quote: I disagree totally. A permanent Court set up to deal with genocide, mass murder, war crimes, etc., is much more efficient and cost effective that setting up random tribunals when we feel we must. After all, one of our complaints against the UN is the inefficiency... well let's put our money where our mouth is.

I disagree that we should ever set up international tribunals period.

	07-05-2002 07:35									#43
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quote: Just because someone thinks an unjustified killing is moral doesn't make it so

Unjustified to who?

quote: I disagree that we should ever set up international tribunals period.

Wonderful, now join the 20th 21st Century

	07-05-2002 07:36									#44
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui A permanent Court set up to deal with genocide, mass murder, war crimes, etc., is much more efficient and cost effective that setting up random tribunals when we feel we must. After all, one of our complaints against the UN is the inefficiency... well let's put our money where our mouth is.

Cost effective? Efficent? Such high praise for something that doesn't even exist in any meaningful for as of yet especially given the fact that very few UN agencies every reach such a lofty status. On what do you base the claim? Ad hoc tribunals don't count for this comparison, so you can forget mentioning the Milosevic trial.

	07-05-2002 07:39									#45
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quote: Cost effective? Efficent? Such high praise for something that doesn't even exist in any meaningful for as of yet especially given the fact that very few UN agencies every reach such a lofty status.

More UN agencies should reach this lofty status. Better to have something permanently in place rather than just making up tribunals whenever you feel that need. Much better to have a permanent Supreme Court of the US, rather than making up tribunals of Appeals Court Justices whenever a federal question came up where different Appeals Courts or State Courts disagreed.

	07-05-2002 07:42									#46
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quote: Unjustified to who?

Unjustified by definition - if I have done nothing, walking up and shooting me is inherently immoral and unjustified.

quote: More UN agencies should reach this lofty status. Better to have something permanently in place rather than just making up tribunals whenever you feel that need. Much better to have a permanent Supreme Court of the US, rather than making up tribunals of Appeals Court Justices whenever a federal question came up where different Appeals Courts or State Courts disagreed.

There's a fundamental difference between SCOTUS and the ICC.

	07-05-2002 07:42									#47
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quote: Originally posted by MrFun David, David, David --- what to do about David?? Your position about Nazis and their crimes is the looniest I have seen yet.

Where did I call YOU a loon??
I merely stated that your argument about the Nazis is really loony.

	07-05-2002 07:42									#48
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quote: Originally posted by David Floyd Yes, and Hitler DIDN'T have a history of executing those who opposed him or could become threats, even his friends and/or advisors. Ernst Roehm, for example, CERTAINLY wasn't killed by Hitler, nor was Erwin Rommel.

Rommel wasn't, he committed suicide. Sure, he was ordered to, but keep in mind--he also had committed a treason. That's different from not following orders.

But yes, I'm sure some would be killed for not following orders. But the Nazi m.o. for recruiting SS Guards for camps (particularly Ukrainians) was finding the most savage bunch of animals they could who would do the job without qualms. Any of these men could claim after the fact they were only acting under orders and were forced, but many prisoners and other guards testified this was not the case. Rather, these men enjoyed their work and did it willingly. Does that not make a difference?

While you can argue it for the train drivers, maybe, you certainly can't argue it for Himmler or Goebbels. They planned it, wanted it, loved it and had it fully within their power to not do it. Hitler wasn't the only one who wanted genocide, his top men were right there with him.

quote: Also, Gustav Krupp was charged, as were Wilhelm Keitel and Erich Raeder. The first was an industrialist and the latter two a field marshall and grand admiral, respectively.

So these men obviously did nothing wrong?

quote: How's that relevant? Willing or not, refusal would have been, shall we say, not good for them.

As Stangl himself admitted while serving his term in prison, he and every one of them could have done more. A lot more. But how many of them wanted to?

	07-05-2002 07:46									#49
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quote: Unjustified by definition - if I have done nothing, walking up and shooting me is inherently immoral and unjustified.

Killing Hitler in 1922, I'd say that was justified.

quote: There's a fundamental difference between SCOTUS and the ICC.

Detail the fundamental differences.

	07-05-2002 07:46									#50
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui Much better to have a permanent Supreme Court of the US, rather than making up tribunals of Appeals Court Justices whenever a federal question came up where different Appeals Courts or State Courts disagreed.

Do you not see a distinction between the national and international levels of law?

BTW, here's the last part of my previous post in case you missed it:

quote: On what do you base the claim? Ad hoc tribunals don't count for this comparison, so you can forget mentioning the Milosevic trial.

Now, on what do you base the claim that the World Court will be both cost effective and efficent?

	07-05-2002 07:48									#51
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quote: Now, on what do you base the claim that the World Court will be both cost effective and efficent?

I already told you. Supreme Court verses ad hoc Appeals Court tribunal.

It is also refered to as common sense .

quote: Do you not see a distinction between the national and international levels of law?

I'm saying that there probably should not be one, or the distinction narrowed.

	07-05-2002 07:50									#52
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Boris,

quote: Rommel wasn't, he committed suicide. Sure, he was ordered to, but keep in mind--he also had committed a treason. That's different from not following orders.

Actually he had nothing to do with the July 20 Plot - he refused to be involved. Hitler decided he was a threat (which he certainly could have been), and forced his death.

quote: But yes, I'm sure some would be killed for not following orders. But the Nazi m.o. for recruiting SS Guards for camps (particularly Ukrainians) was finding the most savage bunch of animals they could who would do the job without qualms. Any of these men could claim after the fact they were only acting under orders and were forced, but many prisoners and other guards testified this was not the case. Rather, these men enjoyed their work and did it willingly. Does that not make a difference?

Frankly no - and methods of recriutment made no difference to the victorious Allies - they would have prosecuted a draftee who gassed Jews just as readily as a volunteer.

quote: While you can argue it for the train drivers, maybe, you certainly can't argue it for Himmler or Goebbels. They planned it, wanted it, loved it and had it fully within their power to not do it. Hitler wasn't the only one who wanted genocide, his top men were right there with him.

Certainly so. That is morally reprehensible. But, was it illegal? Nope.

quote: So these men obviously did nothing wrong?

Not really, especially when compared to people like Curtis LeMay and FDR (who allowed the death of thousands of US sailors in order to galvanize the public for war). Raeder especially did nothing wrong, nor did Keitel - Hitler was in direct command of the armed forces, remember, and issued even these high ranking officers their marching orders. Krupp's only "crime" was employing slave labor, AFAIK, yet this was totally legal, and in any case if he didn't do it he would have been forced to by Hitler.

quote: As Stangl himself admitted while serving his term in prison, he and every one of them could have done more. A lot more. But how many of them wanted to?

How is "not doing enough" to resist orders worthy of prison? Hell, none of them wanted to for fear of consequences.

	07-05-2002 07:53									#53
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quote: [SIZE=1] Killing Hitler in 1922, I'd say that was justified.

Historical hindsight is 20/20, eh?

If you had no idea of the future at that time and all you knew was Hitler was just a hotheaded jerk who hadn't yet done anything wrong, the justification evaporates, doesn't it?

	07-05-2002 07:53									#54
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui I'm saying that there probably should not be one, or the distinction narrowed.

Then you are going about it the wrong way. You'd have to give the UN a permanent army to command in order to do away with the distinction.

	07-05-2002 07:54									#55
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quote: If you had no idea of the future at that time and all you knew was Hitler was just a hotheaded jerk who hadn't yet done anything wrong, the justification evaporates, doesn't it?

Exactly so.

	07-05-2002 07:55									#56
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quote: Then you are going about it the wrong way. You'd have to give the UN a permanent army to command in order to do away with the distinction.

That would be truly frightening.

	07-05-2002 07:56									#57
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quote: If you had no idea of the future at that time and all you knew was Hitler was just a hotheaded jerk who hadn't yet done anything wrong, the justification evaporates, doesn't it?

Well, he did state that the killing is always unjustified.

And after Mein Kampf and the Nazi party taking power... well, you know.

And others that you could be sure of would amount to evil... OBL after the embassy bombings, for example.

	07-05-2002 07:57									#58
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quote: That would be truly frightening.

I'd support a UN standing Peacekeeping Army. It could have sent it into the ME as a buffer between Israel and Palestine.

	07-05-2002 07:57									#59
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quote: Originally posted by David Floyd That would be truly frightening.

Yes, it would be. But it would also be the only way to remove the state of international anarchy that he seems to abhor.

	07-05-2002 08:00									#60
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quote: Well, he did state that the killing is always unjustified.

I said murder is always unjustified, which is simply a truism as I define murder as an unjustified killing. Basically what I'm doing is establishing an absolute moral - that it is always wrong to commit an unjustified killing.

quote: I'd support a UN standing Peacekeeping Army. It could have sent it into the ME as a buffer between Israel and Palestine.

Great - let's let Americans die fr other people's problems!