07-05-2002 09:07									#91
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quote: Attacks on civilian structures in Iraq causing untold civilian deaths Funding of terrorist groups in Nicaragua Funding of the Khmer Rouge even after it proved its insane nature Extrajudicial executions in Viet Nam Funding of terrorist attacks in Cuba

All of this is handled under the ICJ, since this was done by the government as a whole and not simply one individual. And some things like hitting civilian targets in Iraq is not prosecutable.

	07-05-2002 09:08									#92
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quote: Issues on which the US has been indictable in the past: [...] Funding of terrorist groups in Nicaragua

Indicted.

	07-05-2002 09:08									#93
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Not necessarily. US as whole has plausible deniability when it comes to most of those. Can cut loose individuals (Ollie North, etc.)

	07-05-2002 09:11									#94
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In some of them, perhaps.

But the terrorist attacks on Cuba can't. The bombing of Iraq can't. The Nicaragua thing, the government was indicted by the ICJ.

quote: Funding of the Khmer Rouge even after it proved its insane nature

That isn't a crime at all unless prpof can be shown that we knew about it's massacres, and just didn't care (ie, even if we knew about the massacres, if we say the funding was humanitarian, you can't prosecute).

	07-05-2002 09:13									#95
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Ummm...most US funding took place after the Viet Namese kicked the Khmer's ass out of power and back into the bush. The Killing Fields were winning Pulitzers for some reporters by that point. Funding was to a terrorist organisation that had already proven its murderousness and was attempting to destabilise government of Cambodia.

	07-05-2002 09:17									#96
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quote: Funding was to a terrorist organisation that had already proven its murderousness and was attempting to destabilise government of Cambodia.

Terrorist organization or freedom fighters . You'd have to make the distinction, and I don't think you can.

--

Also the rulings shouldn't be (if they are) applied retroactively.

	07-05-2002 09:18									#97
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quote: Also the rulings shouldn't be (if they are) applied retroactively.

So basically, ex post facto laws are out?

Thanks for making my Nuremburg point

	07-05-2002 09:20									#98
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quote: So basically, ex post facto laws are out?

They should be.

quote: Thanks for making my Nuremburg point

IIRC, the League of Nations approved anti-war crimes legislation. That was replaced by the tougher Geneva Convention standards.

	07-05-2002 09:20									#99
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Yep, we knew perfectly well what we were dealing with when we assisted the Khmer Rouge. The same with many terrorists we've dealt with.

	07-05-2002 09:21									#100
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui quote: Funding was to a terrorist organisation that had already proven its murderousness and was attempting to destabilise government of Cambodia. Terrorist organization or freedom fighters . You'd have to make the distinction, and I don't think you can. -- Also the rulings shouldn't be (if they are) applied retroactively.

Khmer was composed of "freedom fighters" that were terrorists. It's quite possible to be both, you know.

Here's he difference: I blow up an Army post for a cause: I'm a guerrilla. I blow up an elementary school for a cause: I'm a terrorist. Both cases I'm a "freedom fighter".

Second, I'm not asking court to be retroactive, I'm demonstrating that ROW has legitimate concerns with behaviour of US.

	07-05-2002 09:23									#101
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quote: I'm demonstrating that ROW has legitimate concerns with behaviour of US.

I'm not debating that. I'm debating if it would be illegal.

Who is in charge of Cambodia now? They would have to bring the charge (and probably in the ICJ, not ICC), because they are the only ones that have standing.

quote: Khmer was composed of "freedom fighters" that were terrorists. It's quite possible to be both, you know.

Yes, but except for Israel, no one is calling for Arafat to be tried for war crimes (or the countries that supported Hamas... like Syria).

	07-05-2002 09:25									#102
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If they wanted to try him for war crimes, then they should be able to. He could share a cell with Sharon.

	07-05-2002 09:27									#103
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui Who is in charge of Cambodia now? They would have to bring the charge (and probably in the ICJ, not ICC), because they are the only ones that have standing

Don't know. Might be royal familiy? Khmer were finally wiped out 2-3 years ago.

	07-05-2002 09:28									#104
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Well, if they don't want to file charges nothing happens . Maybe they'll accept a big settlement .

	07-05-2002 09:34									#105
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quote: Originally posted by KrazyHorse Ummm... Issues on which the US has been indictable in the past: Attacks on civilian structures in Iraq causing untold civilian deaths Funding of terrorist groups in Nicaragua Funding of the Khmer Rouge even after it proved its insane nature Extrajudicial executions in Viet Nam Funding of terrorist attacks in Cuba etc.? If hamstringing the Gulliver is accomplished by asking you to adhere to the usual rules of war, then Gulliver has some very serious problems with the way it operates.

At least do me the courtesy of following my argument. I think this is more about pride and about creating a web of entanglements than about legitimate concerns.

We are the good guys. If you want to look for problems there are more rich opportunities elsewhere.

New issue: If you are planning on constraining our actions as a state, than you should think of a different mechanism than a court for individuals.

	07-05-2002 09:39									#106
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quote: We are the good guys. If you want to look for problems there are more rich opportunities elsewhere.

Yes, we are the good guys. So we should sign international agreements to show that people should abide by international law.

	07-05-2002 09:40									#107
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KH, surely you can at least comprehend (if not agree) that there might be desires other than a legitimate fear which would casue other countires to want to hamstring the Gulliver?

	07-05-2002 09:41									#108
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quote: IIRC, the League of Nations approved anti-war crimes legislation. That was replaced by the tougher Geneva Convention standards.

And Germany withdrew from the League. Geneva never allowed for anything resembling Nuremburg.
The US never even ratified the Geneva Convention until 1982, by the way.

	07-05-2002 09:42									#109
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quote: And Germany withdrew from the League.

Doesn't matter. The laws were still there.

quote: The US never even ratified the Geneva Convention until 1982, by the way.

And you wonder why other countries hate our guts . We are hypocrites.

	07-05-2002 09:43									#110
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GP, your major contention was that we shouldn't be worried about you because you're the good guys and you don't let your military play fast and loose with the rules. I provided instances where this has not always been the case.

Also not mentioned: I seem to recall that only a single person was convicted for the My Lai massacre. Strange, given how many people were involved. Nobody can be trusted to police themselves. Telling us not to worry is just silly...

	07-05-2002 09:45									#111
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quote: Originally posted by GP KH, surely you can at least comprehend (if not agree) that there might be desires other than a legitimate fear which would casue other countires to want to hamstring the Gulliver?

Sure, but isn't that why there would be some sort of fair trial?

	07-05-2002 09:46									#112
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quote: I seem to recall that only a single person was convicted for the My Lai massacre.

Actually the leader of the unit was convicted, IIRC.

	07-05-2002 09:47									#113
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Lt. Calley (sp)

a) Why only him?

b) IIRC, he only served 5 years

	07-05-2002 09:49									#114
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quote: Originally posted by KrazyHorse Nobody can be trusted to police themselves. Telling us not to worry is just silly...

The ICC doesn't have any police power, KH. It is a meaningless feel good measure given the shear number that haven't agreed to its ratification. "The nobody can be trusted to police themselves" arguement is a nonstarter.

	07-05-2002 09:49									#115
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quote: Doesn't matter. The laws were still there.

So if the US withdraws from the UN it is still obliged to follow UN rules and mandates and such?

quote: We are hypocrites.

As Nuremburg certainly proved - ex post facto laws violate our own Constitution, yet we had no problem applying them to Germans.

But in any case, AFAIK the Geneva Convention did not provide for something like Nuremburg to right wrongs, and even if it did most of the people tried at Nuremburg and elsewhere were unjustly convicted as I showed above.

	07-05-2002 09:50									#116
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quote: a) Why only him?

Usually international law (precedent from Nuremburg) spares the common soldier, and prosecutes the leader of the unit. Or else, we'd have to kill most of the German soldiers back then.

quote: b) IIRC, he only served 5 years

He actually recieved a life sentance... but I think it didn't survive appeal.

	07-05-2002 09:53									#117
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quote: So if the US withdraws from the UN it is still obliged to follow UN rules and mandates and such?

If the UN beats us in a war, yes.

quote: As Nuremburg certainly proved - ex post facto laws violate our own Constitution, yet we had no problem applying them to Germans. But in any case, AFAIK the Geneva Convention did not provide for something like Nuremburg to right wrongs, and even if it did most of the people tried at Nuremburg and elsewhere were unjustly convicted as I showed above.

The constitution does not provide for the Supreme Court to be able to use judicial review... it is extropolated from it. Enforcement mechanisms are things that are made.

Oh, and didn't you know David, might makes right. This ICC (and to a certain extent ICJ) is trying to stop this and apply 'rights' to all citizens and countries. You should be happy with it.

	07-05-2002 09:54									#118
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc The ICC doesn't have any police power, KH. It is a meaningless feel good measure given the shear number that haven't agreed to its ratification. "The nobody can be trusted to police themselves" arguement is a nonstarter.

It provides a level of accountability to the ROW, Dino...

	07-05-2002 09:54									#119
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KH:

quote: The Army reduced his sentence to 20 years, President Richard Nixon in 1971 ordered him released from prison and placed under house arrest, and finally a federal judge threw out all charges against William Calley and ordered him freed. Although the charges were later re-instated on appeal, he served no more jail time for My Lai.

http://www.dade.k12.fl.us/edison/calley.htm

	07-05-2002 09:56									#120
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui quote: And you said 1922 Hitler, remember. We're talking about a Hitler who had yet to do anything but write rotten things. Yes, but we KNOW he was. I'd kill one man to save millions... anyday.

So when are you going to take up arms on BUSH before he kills millions.