07-05-2002 09:58									#121
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quote: Originally posted by KrazyHorse It provides a level of accountability to the ROW, Dino...

What accountability? Accountability is meaningless without somesort of enforcement mechanism to back it up.

How would the level of accountability be any different from that that exists now?

	07-05-2002 09:58									#122
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You know, it is people like Bush, and arrogant Americans like Floyd, that make me sure the US will instigate a third world war.

	07-05-2002 09:58									#123
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quote: If the UN beats us in a war, yes.

Ah! Well as usual, it comes down to "might makes right."

So if I beat you up and steal your wallet is that OK?

quote: The constitution does not provide for the Supreme Court to be able to use judicial review... it is extropolated from it. Enforcement mechanisms are things that are made.

That's certainly true, but then again you can't go around extrapolating things from treaties, or pretty soon you'll have treaties that mean more than they were intended.

Further, I think that if an enforcement mechanism such as Nuremburg had been included, many countries would have rejected it, but irregardless, the point is that it did not.

quote: Oh, and didn't you know David, might makes right. This ICC (and to a certain extent ICJ) is trying to stop this and apply 'rights' to all citizens and countries. You should be happy with it.

Hmm, so might makes right until the ICC says it doesn't? What?

	07-05-2002 09:58									#124
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui quote: We are the good guys. If you want to look for problems there are more rich opportunities elsewhere. Yes, we are the good guys. So we should sign international agreements to show that people should abide by international law.

This is part of the issue. People feeling "valiant" for signing an agreement. (Moral masturbation--Right action is what makes you the good guy. Not what piece of paper you sign.)

	07-05-2002 09:59									#125
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And? How many counts of murder was it? Something over 300 IIRC. Your criminal code seems remarkably lax in this case. This is a tenth the body count of the WTC. I'm sure that Bin Laden will be freed into house arrest after 20 years.

Face it; the US Army doesn't care that much if their soldiers go nutbar and put a village to the sword because it's not Americans who are dying. Nothing special about the US in this, just a fact of life. No accountability to victims&families = no interest in vigorous pursuit of justice.

	07-05-2002 10:00									#126
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quote: You know, it is people like Bush, and arrogant Americans like Floyd, that make me sure the US will instigate a third world war.

Keeping in mind I oppose almost every war the US has ever fought, how in HELL can you say I'll contribute to WW3?

	07-05-2002 10:02									#127
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Your viewpoints on this topic, David.

	07-05-2002 10:02									#128
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc What accountability? Accountability is meaningless without somesort of enforcement mechanism to back it up. How would the level of accountability be any different from that that exists now?

Don't be dense, Dino. By signing off on this the US would have to allow someone else access to its soldiers in case of trial. If they don't pony them up then they're breaking their word. If you hadn't noticed, that's all the enforcement that's possible with treaties with large nations.

	07-05-2002 10:03									#129
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Funny, the League of Nations didn't stop WW2, why should the ICC stop WW3?

	07-05-2002 10:05									#130
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quote: Originally posted by GP This is part of the issue. People feeling "valiant" for signing an agreement. (Moral masturbation--Right action is what makes you the good guy. Not what piece of paper you sign.)

Right action is handing over soldiers to impartial court, not trying them in front of their own side for the murder of people from somewhere else.

	07-05-2002 10:06									#131
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quote: Right action is handing over soldiers to impartial court, not trying them in front of their own side for the murder of people from somewhere else.

I believe that would violate the UCMJ, although I could be wrong.

	07-05-2002 10:07									#132
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Change UCMJ.

	07-05-2002 10:08									#133
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quote: Originally posted by Grrr Your viewpoints on this topic, David.

The only way David would start a war is if he caught Putin in his home trying to steal his VCR.



Seriously, Floyd's not a warmonger, you're making assumptions. If anything, he's TOO reluctant to go to war, which is probably much better than the other extreme, isn't it?

	07-05-2002 10:08									#134
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quote: So when are you going to take up arms on BUSH before he kills millions.

Why would Bush kill millions? There is no proof to back that up. But when a dictator writes that he will kill all the Jews in Europe and then becomes a totalitarian leader... I'd say there would be a fear, he'd do something like that, wouldn't you?

quote: So if I beat you up and steal your wallet is that OK?

If there was no government, yes. The government is mightier than I am, though.

quote: That's certainly true, but then again you can't go around extrapolating things from treaties, or pretty soon you'll have treaties that mean more than they were intended.

So you'd support SCOTUS not having the right of judicial review?

quote: Hmm, so might makes right until the ICC says it doesn't? What?

Kind of. You would need some might to enforce it. But countries or people in them would give up their criminals (like Yugoslavia), therefore, with the changing mentality, the whole 'might makes right' argument calls. Of course, you could call the UN then the mightiest, with support from almost all the member nations, if it comes to that.

quote: And? How many counts of murder was it? Something over 300 IIRC. Your criminal code seems remarkably lax in this case. This is a tenth the body count of the WTC. I'm sure that Bin Laden will be freed into house arrest after 20 years. Face it; the US Army doesn't care that much if their soldiers go nutbar and put a village to the sword because it's not Americans who are dying. Nothing special about the US in this, just a fact of life. No accountability to victims&families = no interest in vigorous pursuit of justice.

I ain't saying it was right, I was just disputing that he wasn't tried. If the first verdict stood, he'd be still doing hard labor.

quote: Funny, the League of Nations didn't stop WW2, why should the ICC stop WW3?

You can make the case that perhaps the UN stopped WW3, so... .

	07-05-2002 10:09									#135
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Actually I do support making the UCMJ challengeable under the US Constitution.

But I also believe that were you to change the UCMJ on this issue, you'd have to give every US soldier the option to get out of the military with no penalty.

	07-05-2002 10:10									#136
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You think that every soldier should be able to get out of the military with no penalty anyway.

	07-05-2002 10:10									#137
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quote: But I also believe that were you to change the UCMJ on this issue, you'd have to give every US soldier the option to get out of the military with no penalty.

Fine! Happy?

But, let's be practical here. If the law changes does that mean the military has to be given an option to leave? No... so why should this?

	07-05-2002 10:12									#138
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quote: Originally posted by KrazyHorse If you hadn't noticed, that's all the enforcement that's possible with treaties with large nations.

Which is why the ICC is, to borrow from GP, nothing more than moral masterbation at this point. No real enforcement is possible at this point and the procedural safeguards will be less than those that are in US courts. Furthermore, No Arab countries and hardly any Asian countries have ratified it.

	07-05-2002 10:15									#139
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Boris,

quote: The only way David would start a war is if he caught Putin in his home trying to steal his VCR. Seriously, Floyd's not a warmonger, you're making assumptions. If anything, he's TOO reluctant to go to war, which is probably much better than the other extreme, isn't it?

Exactly.

Imran,

quote: If there was no government, yes. The government is mightier than I am, though.

So assuming we went somewhere there is no government - say, the moon, and I pull out a gun and rob you, you'd see nothing wrong with it?

quote: So you'd support SCOTUS not having the right of judicial review?

First off, an impartial court didn't interpret Geneva, the victorious powers did without giving all signatories a say. That's your first problem right there.
Second, the US Constitution and Geneva are two separate things. Judicial review is easily justified using the Constitution, but the ability to liberally interpret provisions of the eneva Convention are nowhere to be found in that document.

quote: Kind of. You would need some might to enforce it. But countries or people in them would give up their criminals (like Yugoslavia), therefore, with the changing mentality, the whole 'might makes right' argument calls. Of course, you could call the UN then the mightiest, with support from almost all the member nations, if it comes to that.

OK, I just can't support the doctrine of "might makes right", simply because it paves the way for authoritarianism.

quote: I ain't saying it was right, I was just disputing that he wasn't tried. If the first verdict stood, he'd be still doing hard labor.

How was My Lai wrong? I mean, I thought might made right?

	07-05-2002 10:16									#140
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quote: Which is why the ICC is, to borrow from GP, nothing more than moral masterbation at this point. No real enforcement is possible at this point and the procedural safeguards will be less than those that are in US courts. Furthermore, No Arab countries and hardly any Asian countries have ratified it.

You have to crawl before you walk.

And there is always the chance for enforcement if countries or people within them help us out .

After all, how do you justify anything new? I mean, when the EU started, there was no enforcement of its actions. It grew into it.

	07-05-2002 10:16									#141
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Dino, you've just provided an "argument" that says that the US shouldn't ever sign a treaty.

By signing this, US would promise to do certain things that it doesn't do now.

	07-05-2002 10:17									#142
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quote: Originally posted by KrazyHorse Sure, but isn't that why there would be some sort of fair trial?

My point was more wrt to states wanting the treaty.

	07-05-2002 10:19									#143
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quote: But, let's be practical here. If the law changes does that mean the military has to be given an option to leave? No... so why should this?

Simply because in such a case, US soldiers could potentially face trials in foreign nations by foreign judges for following actions - the US won't send Bush to trial, or the Chairman of the JCS, they'll find a low ranking scapegoat.
At least in the current system, the accused are able to face a trial by their peers, which an ICC would certainly not provide.

	07-05-2002 10:19									#144
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And then what's the problem? Agreements mean what they say. If you don't like what they say, then try to change it. Simply pointing out that some people might have nefarious motives in wanting this to be signed doesn't provided evidence one way or another as to whether you should sign.

	07-05-2002 10:20									#145
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui After all, how do you justify anything new?

If it provides benefits to the US. The ICC fails that test.

	07-05-2002 10:20									#146
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quote: So assuming we went somewhere there is no government - say, the moon, and I pull out a gun and rob you, you'd see nothing wrong with it?

To me it would be. To the world at large, probably not, because no one would enforce any right that I claimed I had.

quote: Judicial review is easily justified using the Constitution

So if it can be justified in someway, it is ok? Wouldn't that mean that the most of the expanses of state power are constitutional? If you can extract judicial review out of the Constitution, then it isn't that far of a leap to extract the Nuremburg trials from Geneva, say.

quote: OK, I just can't support the doctrine of "might makes right", simply because it paves the way for authoritarianism.

Yes, but this is how it has been. Look at the real world for once. The ICC & ICJ mitigates the 'might makes right' principle, just as US law does so in the United States.

quote: How was My Lai wrong? I mean, I thought might made right?

How things are, and what I think is moral are two different things, Floyd .

	07-05-2002 10:22									#147
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc If it provides benefits to the US. The ICC fails that test.

A Macchiavelian who has trouble understanding the idea of ultimate sovereignty, where it lies in the US and what it means...

	07-05-2002 10:24									#148
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quote: To me it would be. To the world at large, probably not, because no one would enforce any right that I claimed I had.

Wait - you said might makes right. You didn't say it makes right for some and wrong for others. If might makes right you have no legitimate complaint in this scenario.

quote: So if it can be justified in someway, it is ok? Wouldn't that mean that the most of the expanses of state power are constitutional? If you can extract judicial review out of the Constitution, then it isn't that far of a leap to extract the Nuremburg trials from Geneva, say.

Actually I answered this - reread my post.

quote: Yes, but this is how it has been. Look at the real world for once. The ICC & ICJ mitigates the 'might makes right' principle, just as US law does so in the United States.

How so? The League and UN were supposed to do the same thing, and neither did so.

quote: How things are, and what I think is moral are two different things, Floyd

Not really - either something is right or it isn't, you can't argue that murder is OK from one perspective but not another.

	07-05-2002 10:24									#149
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quote: If it provides benefits to the US. The ICC fails that test.

How does the UN provide benefits to the US under that test

I can't see how it does not. It allows people to be tried that couldn't be tried in US courts. I recall reading about people that were kept captive in the US embassy wanting to sue Iran... in US COURTS. Sorry, but if that isn't justification for international courts (ICJ and ICC), I don't see what is.

(and anyway, when they left they signed a treaty saying they wouldn't sue, so it would have been void anyway).

We'd like to try people like Castro (if he ever steps down). What a better way to justify it by having the ICC do it?

And furthermore, it would increase the power of 'democracy' and 'human rights', things we say we believe in, in the rest of the world. This would increase our credibility on moral crusades (like Kosovo).

	07-05-2002 10:25									#150
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui We'd like to try people like Castro

For?