07-05-2002 06:17									#1
	Why the new XP needs Vikings Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

The Vikings were a great seafaring power in Medieval times, as we all well know. Here are several reasons for including them in the XP.

1. Geography: while being proximal to Russia, Germany, England, and France, this would be a non-issue with non-earth worlds. It would be an added challenge on an earth world as well, considering a viking civ would not be as focussed on peaceful expansion, but bloody expansion.

2. The Vikings were not plundering barbarians, as thought by many. They had a distinct culture, a northern identity, a complex polytheistic religion, and also were accomplished traders, especially in their conquered lands. Even the "civilopedia" attests to their roles in the develpment of Russia and Britain.

3. The viking people are still alive today, albiet scattered throughout Norway, Sweden, Finland, Denmark etc.

4. The Vikings would allow for interesting unique units like a coastal raider unit, similar to a swordsman, but with amphibious assault ability.

5. A Viking civ would have an almost endless libary of Scandinavian city names.

6. A Viking civ would build the arguement for having new civ characteristics, such as "marintime." This is discussed on another thread.

What d you think?

	07-05-2002 06:46									#2
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I think that these are all good reasons. I especially like the idea for the swordsman with an amphibious attack. This idea would add variety to the Viking civ, it would be more useful than a longship or other purely nautical units. Giving an early amphibious unit to the Vikings would give an added incentive to use them, and would be a Civ specific unit that would stay relatively useful until the late industrial age.

	07-05-2002 06:50									#3
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I concur that this is a pretty cool idea.

a marine unit coupled with cheaper ships: watch out in the early game. would be very cool. Esp if the ships were half price or something, due to the maritime ability.


Be great to play with on archipeligo maps.

	07-05-2002 06:57									#4
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I concur. The Vikings have had a profound impact on history. Plus talk about unique units! They would have several to chose from, but probably a maritime unit would be best.

	07-05-2002 06:57									#5
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If they would add Maritime, the English should be Commercial and Maritime. The Maritime rait should come with Mapmaking as its free advance. Its primary bonus should be cheaper naval units and harbors, its secondary trait should be an extra movement point for all ships.

	07-05-2002 07:01									#6
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having an amhpibious swordsman is an extremely unfair advantage, IMHO. i think they'd have a longboat of somesort.

	07-05-2002 07:02									#7
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quote: Originally posted by nationalist If they would add Maritime, the English should be Commercial and Maritime. The Maritime rait should come with Mapmaking as its free advance. Its primary bonus should be cheaper naval units and harbors, its secondary trait should be an extra movement point for all ships.

so you'd give a civ a tech 3 or 4 techs down the tree?

you'd have to give them alpha or pottery.

	07-05-2002 07:08									#8
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Don't worry, Screaming, the Vikings will be in the XP.

	07-05-2002 07:11									#9
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quote: Originally posted by UberKruX having an amhpibious swordsman is an extremely unfair advantage, IMHO. i think they'd have a longboat of somesort.

Why would it be so unfair? It wouldn't get any attack of defensive bonuses, just the amphibous attack.

	07-05-2002 07:13									#10
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quote: Originally posted by UberKruX so you'd give a civ a tech 3 or 4 techs down the tree? you'd have to give them alpha or pottery.

True, forgot about that. Give them Pottery. They need to carry food on those long sea trips.

	07-05-2002 09:27									#11
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Because Finns make up half of Apolyton we need Vikings?!


Of course.

	07-05-2002 18:28									#12
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quote: Originally posted by UberKruX having an amhpibious swordsman is an extremely unfair advantage, IMHO. i think they'd have a longboat of somesort.

I don't think it would be much of an advantage at all.
I can't think of much, besides raiding for workers, that an amphibious swordsman could do that other swordsmen couldn't. How often would you need to attack from a boat?

	07-05-2002 19:42									#13
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quote: Originally posted by ScreamingViking The Vikings were a great seafaring power in Medieval times, as we all well know. Here are several reasons for including them in the XP. 3. The viking people are still alive today, albiet scattered throughout Norway, Sweden, Finland, Denmark etc. What d you think?

We are in the US and Canada too

	07-05-2002 20:26									#14
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yes amphib assault is a very very small advantage to give them

	07-05-2002 20:35									#15
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quote: Originally posted by Skanky Burns I don't think it would be much of an advantage at all. I can't think of much, besides raiding for workers, that an amphibious swordsman could do that other swordsmen couldn't. How often would you need to attack from a boat?

This is a good point. I've used the marine ability all of once I think.

It would be cool if you could give the unit like a 25% or 50% bonus for attacking by sea, then there would be some advantages. Of course, you can;t at this point, so its moot.

Probably for this type of viking unit to be really useful, would recquire specifically tailored scenarios. nuff said about that.

	07-05-2002 20:53									#16
	Re: Why the new XP needs Vikings Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

quote: Originally posted by ScreamingViking The Vikings were a great seafaring power in Medieval times, as we all well know. Here are several reasons for including them in the XP. snip 4. The Vikings would allow for interesting unique units like a coastal raider unit, similar to a swordsman, but with amphibious assault ability. snip

Excellent arguments, not that I think argument is necessary. I am sure the Vikings will be in.

I really like your UU idea, and it does not seem unbalancing to me. Ships as UU don't seem to convey any advantage, except maybe to do some early exploring. But that could be even more unbalancing if the Vikings were always able to contact everyone before anybody else. Also, I think all the civs make contact with each other too early as it is now.

	07-05-2002 21:25									#17
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i think it is a brilliant advantage, weak in some ways, brilliant for other situations, like i square islands that cant be attacked for 3000+ years, and it can direcly attack cities, but, woulnt be very good at land to land, maybe only 1 defence
i would love the vikings as a race, i always used them in civ2

	07-05-2002 21:32									#18
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quote: Originally posted by asleepathewheel This is a good point. I've used the marine ability all of once I think.

Could the reason for this be that by the time Marines come around infantry and coastal forces are already in place? This makes the Marine a weak unit. If the Viking UU could attack earlier, there would be no coastal fortresses.

quote: Probably for this type of viking unit to be really useful, would recquire specifically tailored scenarios. nuff said about that.

I think that it would be useful for any game other than pangaea. Not only could you take the 1 block island cities, you could attack any city on the shore directly fomr the ship. This saves an entire turn of unloading. I think that it would be very useful, way more so than a ship unit. After all, look at how great the Man-O-War is now.

	07-05-2002 23:07									#19
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I think the idea for the amphibous swordsmen is great, and even if it weren't added as an UU, it still might be a good addition to the game, either, by via modding or Firaxis.

	07-05-2002 23:45									#20
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quote: Originally posted by Skanky Burns I don't think it would be much of an advantage at all. I can't think of much, besides raiding for workers, that an amphibious swordsman could do that other swordsmen couldn't. How often would you need to attack from a boat?

i use marines all the freaking time! if you have several transports full of tanks, and some marines, you can take over a city with the marines, then move the tank transports IN the cuty, unload, and have full movement points. i could easily adapt that to work with swordsmen, horsemen or knights.

and plus the Swordman never gets obsolete, so technically you could rule with that aphibious unit for quite a while.

	07-05-2002 23:49									#21
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Jawa Jocky, I'm of Norwegian descent. There are many Scandanavians in Western Canada.

	08-05-2002 07:40									#22
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I really like the Amphibious sworsmen (or should it be some ax weilding guy?) too.
About the usefullness of amphibious attacks, I always find I want to make them long before marines come around, but when I finally have them I can hardly ever find a use for them. I usually try to fit them into somekind of land vs land offensive role.
I actually modded the game slightly to accomodate 8 civs on a tiny map (which actually worked fairly well, only one civ had been destroyed by mid-game, though the AI got REALLY cranky about not having a whole lot of room) so to make stuff like marines and paratroopers as well as capturing resources more useful (my thinking was a smaller map and more people to interact with would lead to greater attention to and usefulness of tiny and strategic bits of terrain).

	08-05-2002 08:05									#23
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Amphibious is only percieved as a weak ability because the only uni that has it sucks. Amphibious units would be albe to capture coastal cities that were undefended, and given the good swordmen attack I think that nobody would stand a chance even on pangaea maps.

I think the UU should be the Longboat, a trireme with one extra attack point and the ability to go in sea squares as well as coast (they got all the way to the Americas!).

	08-05-2002 15:39									#24
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lets not forget those 1 square islands that the AI builds on, and you cant kill unit you have marines / lethal bombarding boats.

	09-05-2002 00:33									#25
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quote: Originally posted by ScreamingViking Jawa Jocky, I'm of Norwegian descent. There are many Scandanavians in Western Canada.

I'm of Swedish descent I think there are more people in North America that can claim Scandanavian descent the they're are people in Scandanavia. However, our Swedish cousins always tell us that we are a bunch of Euromutts. I'd like the Vikings even if I wasn't biased because they kicked *ss.

	09-05-2002 02:11									#26
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I've read somewhere that there are at least as many people in the US descending from the "refugees" that fled from hunger in the 1800s, than there are Norwegians!(from Norway, that is. I don't know how it's from the other countries)

I really like the idea of this "Swordsman". Maybe it could be called something like "berserker"(that's the norwegian name, I don't know the english counterpart...)?

	09-05-2002 03:25									#27
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same in norwegian and english

	09-05-2002 05:25									#28
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Yes, and their strategic resource could be hallucinogenic mushrooms...

	09-05-2002 05:28									#29
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I think they should be called Scandinavians or Swedish/Danish,
Vikings makes them sound barbaric, they seemed to become more of a civilisation when they split up.. also the Russians were made up from Vikings so they should be separated out I think.
Vikings might be nice though, but just not so historic.

	09-05-2002 19:14									#30
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Actually Norsemen would be the correct name, and it's not barbaric at all.