08-05-2002 00:49									#31
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quote: Originally posted by SpencerH A pilot attacking the ship is one thing, but given the subsequent involvement of the torpedo boats its unlikely that this was an accident. A question that strikes me is why was the attack not carried out to completion? The liberty was not sunk!

They had already destroyed the section of the ship they wanted. Although they did look like they wantedbto finish the job.

	08-05-2002 01:01									#32
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C'mon Siro, would you have us believe the IAF and the Israeli military intel are both utter incompetents? They should have quite detailed information of the ships operating in the area.

As for the flag thingie, did I use it as an argument? If there wasn't a flag, then easily the most distinctive marking is on the bow, "GTR 5". I'm absolutely positive that the Israeli military knew what those letters mean.

	08-05-2002 01:21									#33
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actually ,the two ships do look similar, to me , at least.But I've seen lot's of ship, grew around them as a child so...

Jaako:
what DO those letters mean?

	08-05-2002 01:30									#34
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quote: I'm not sure that if I were a pilot, knowing about planes, not ships, I'd know the difference.

You're telling me that in one of the top-notch air forces in the world, pilots flying atack aircraft can't be expected to properly identify their targets? That's pretty scary, don't you think?

Or just a bad excuse, which is the one I'm leaning towards.

And it still doesn't explain the torpedo boats.

	08-05-2002 01:38									#35
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Siro,

Are you seriously stating that you think the attack was justified? The ship was in international waters, passively collecting ELINT. YOu are not justified in attacking US ships in this situation. (Beleive me...I saw a Russian AGI (Balzac) every time I left San Diego. It sat right at the 12 mile line...)

If you think the attack was justified, surely a cover up wouldn't bother your conscience much...

Last edited by TCO on 08-05-2002 at 01:49

	08-05-2002 01:40									#36
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Dalgetti, the ship's designation is AGTR-5.
And those two ships definitely are not similar (except for a layman). For starters, the Egyptian ship is much smaller (455´vs. 275') and lacks all the big antennas of USS Liberty. They obviously have a similar hull, but if that was where identification ended, friendly fire would be more common that enemy attacks.

	08-05-2002 01:45									#37
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Siro, I've already given you the Liberty web site adress. It has the Coutr of Inquiry documents , etc. as links on there. You can read stuff both pro and anti conspiracy theory on there. (admittedly more pro...but still a good place for you to follow links.)

FYI: It is extremely hard to get a flag to hang limp on a moving Naval vessel. (From somebody who's spent plenty of time driving a ship...and observing other ships.)

The ship was reconned. There is no dispute about that, Siro. The ship position was noted and logged and a marker placed on the Isr. status board several hours before the attack.

(Wether the marker was deliberatley or mistakenly removed later we don't know and could argue...but there is no dispute about the reconning.)

	08-05-2002 01:47									#38
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I wasn't shrooming, I was trolling David. It always strikes me as odd how he puts out the USS Liberty incident as a reason to hate Israel, yet he never questions what it was doing there in the first place.

Warning: If you go to a warzone, do not ***** and moan when people accidentally shoot you.

I find it highly unlikely that the Israelis would fire on a US ship knowingly. In this case the most plausible situation is exactly the same that likely happened in the American bombing of our Canadian allies - somebody was scared of enemy combatants, and acted irrationally and killed friendly people.

	08-05-2002 01:49									#39
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ahem , I never said the attack was justified, GP. I've said that most chances are that it was a mistake , given the fact there is no reason for Israel to attack a US reconnaisance ship !

Let's just say, for argument's sake, that Israel was committing enormous atrocities in the Sinai. It wouldn't been the first time that a US ally would have commited those , during the cold war . It's not like US let relationships suffer because of that.

That's my main problem with this theory . It gives no reason for it to happen.

	08-05-2002 01:53									#40
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GP, sure, it might be illegal and immoral and what ever.

But the point is, that if you know that someone is spying on you, you may very well try to stop it, even if he's not doing "illegal" things.

Personally I think that the whole thing was indeed an accident.

But if it wasn't, while I agree that it wasn't moral, or legal or justified, had I been in office and had a security issue to protect during war, I might have made the same choise.

Wouldn't you?

	08-05-2002 01:55									#41
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quote: Originally posted by Felch X I wasn't shrooming, I was trolling David. It always strikes me as odd how he puts out the USS Liberty incident as a reason to hate Israel, yet he never questions what it was doing there in the first place. Warning: If you go to a warzone, do not ***** and moan when people accidentally shoot you. I find it highly unlikely that the Israelis would fire on a US ship knowingly. In this case the most plausible situation is exactly the same that likely happened in the American bombing of our Canadian allies - somebody was scared of enemy combatants, and acted irrationally and killed friendly people.

Got you and Siro mixed up. Hard to remember you all. Eli is the wimpy, childish one. Can't remember how to distinguish you and Siro. One of you is pro-Soviet. Funny for an Israili? Can't remember a distinguishing characteristic of the other.

	08-05-2002 01:58									#42
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Siro actually has a brain but alas disables it when entering ME threads.

Eli is, as you described, the wimpy and childish one, he doesn't care for human lives etc, it's all a game for him

Now the pro-Soviet one is Dalgetti, who's a bit harder to characterize though

	08-05-2002 01:58									#43
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quote: Originally posted by Felch X I wasn't shrooming, I was trolling David. It always strikes me as odd how he puts out the USS Liberty incident as a reason to hate Israel, yet he never questions what it was doing there in the first place.

If the attack was accidental, than the ship location has bearing. David beleives the attack was deliberate.

	08-05-2002 02:00									#44
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what does shrooming mean?

	08-05-2002 02:00									#45
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quote: Originally posted by Ecthelion Siro actually has a brain but alas disables it when entering ME threads. Eli is, as you described, the wimpy and childish one, he doesn't care for human lives etc, it's all a game for him Now the pro-Soviet one is Dalgetti, who's a bit harder to characterize though

Gracias!!!

	08-05-2002 02:01									#46
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look , the troll opened his mouth.
go ahead now , Ec. take your best shot

	08-05-2002 02:02									#47
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Do you think you make yourself look very clever by adressing to every poster that speaks less than glorifying of your person as a troll? I've just actually tried to help GP distinguish you fellas.

And he's right, it's a pretty tough task.

	08-05-2002 02:03									#48
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[threadjack]Hey GP, what did you do in the Navy?[/threadjack]

	08-05-2002 02:05									#49
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quote: Originally posted by Sirotnikov GP, sure, it might be illegal and immoral and what ever. But the point is, that if you know that someone is spying on you, you may very well try to stop it, even if he's not doing "illegal" things. Personally I think that the whole thing was indeed an accident. But if it wasn't, while I agree that it wasn't moral, or legal or justified, had I been in office and had a security issue to protect during war, I might have made the same choise. Wouldn't you?

No. And unlike you I have gathered intel and seen other intel gathering vessels on the high seas. And been in a couple tight spots...

BTW, that you and other Isr. would justify this attack makes it (sadly, sadly) more conceiveable that such an attack was oredered. Very sad, since it lowers my interest in helping you all.

	08-05-2002 02:07									#50
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quote: Originally posted by Dalgetti look , the troll opened his mouth. go ahead now , Ec. take your best shot

Those weren't his best shots. He was just helping me label y'all. Have a sense of humor...

	08-05-2002 02:08									#51
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Ecthelion: 'your rabbi won't like it'?

sure I often accept invitations to a lower level of discussion .
Your furher will, however, like it.

you calling Eli childish lives in the domain of one pot calling another black .

	08-05-2002 02:09									#52
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quote: Originally posted by Jaakko [threadjack]Hey GP, what did you do in the Navy?[/threadjack]

attack submarine and staff officer

	08-05-2002 02:10									#53
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quote: Originally posted by GP Those weren't his best shots. He was just helping me label y'all. Have a sense of humor...

thanks... Dal has been not-so-friendly lately

	08-05-2002 02:14									#54
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erm, look, obviously one wouldn't want to do that, and normally would do that.

however, sometimes you do illegal things in special operations.

in any case, i do not represent israel or israelis, at least not in that point.

	08-05-2002 02:19									#55
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Dal, answer me in the "kto ruski" thread

	08-05-2002 02:20									#56
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But if there are lots of Isr. who feel as you do, that makes a deliberate attack more plausible...

	08-05-2002 02:22									#57
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quote: Originally posted by GP attack submarine and staff officer

Thanks.
What kind of a sub? I used to love EA's 688 Attack Sub when I was a kid.

	08-05-2002 02:23									#58
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well obviously a deliberate attack is plausible.
i don't claim we're so very holy and so on, even though i do think that we're usually much more moral than most world countries.

my problem with the deliberate attack claim, is that i see no profit coming out of it - only troubles.

	08-05-2002 02:25									#59
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quote: Originally posted by Jaakko What kind of a sub? I used to love EA's 688 Attack Sub when I was a kid.

Yeah, cool, played that a lot!

	08-05-2002 02:35									#60
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quote: Originally posted by Jaakko Thanks. What kind of a sub? I used to love EA's 688 Attack Sub when I was a kid.

2 Sturgeon class boats. 1 class older than the 688.