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David Floyd
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The bottom of a large bottle of beer
Jan 1970
time: 05:19
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quote:
I mean, why was it off somewhere that it didn't belong in the first place? Why was the USS Cole in that god-forsaken hellhole? Why are there U.S. forces in 100 countries that seem to do nothing but stir up resentment? |
The Liberty was clearly in international waters.
I do agree that we should close all foreign military bases and cease deploying the Navy around the world except on exercises near our shores and valid combat missions if we are attacked.
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Sirotnikov
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<--- Yes, It's a "kitty" in a boot.
Feb 2000
time: 07:19
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The Israeli attack on the USS Liberty was a grievous error, largely attributable to the fact that it occurred in the midst of the confusion of a full-scale war in 1967. Ten official United States investigations and three official Israeli inquiries have all conclusively established the attack was a tragic mistake.
On June 8, 1967, the fourth day of the Six-Day War, the Israeli high command received reports that Israeli troops in El Arish were being fired upon from the sea, presumably by an Egyptian vessel, as they had a day before. The United States had announced that it had no Naval forces within hundreds of miles of the battle front on the floor of the United Nations a few days earlier; however, the USS Liberty, an American intelligence ship assigned to monitor the fighting, arrived in the area, 14 miles off the Sinai coast, as a result of a series of United States communication failures, whereby messages directing the ship not to approach within 100 miles were not received by the Liberty. The Israelis mistakenly thought this was the ship doing the shelling and war planes and torpedo boats attacked, killing 34 members of the Liberty's crew and wounding 171.
Numerous mistakes were made by both the United States and Israel. For example, the Liberty was first reported — incorrectly, as it turned out — to be cruising at 30 knots (it was later recalculated to be 28 knots). Under Israeli (and U.S.) naval doctrine at the time, a ship proceeding at that speed was presumed to be a warship. The day fighting began, Israel had asked that American ships be removed from its coast or that it be notified of the precise location of U.S. vessels.28 The Sixth Fleet was moved because President Johnson feared being drawn into a confrontation with the Soviet Union. He also ordered that no aircraft be sent near Sinai.
According to Israeli Chief of Staff Yitzhak Rabin's memoirs, there were standing orders to attack any unidentified vessel near the shore.29 The sea was calm and the U.S. Navy Court of Inquiry found that the Liberty's flag was very likely drooped and not discernible; moreover, members of the crew, including the Captain, Commander William McGonagle, testified that the flag was knocked down after the first or second assault.
A CIA report on the incident issued June 13, 1967, also found that an overzealous pilot could mistake the Liberty for an Egyptian ship, the El Quseir. After the air raid, Israeli torpedo boats identified the Liberty as an Egyptian naval vessel. When the Liberty began shooting at the Israelis, they responded with the torpedo attack, which killed 28 of the sailors.
The argument that the attack was a tragic mistake is further reinforced by a new biography of Yitzhak Rabin (Dan Kurzman, Soldier of Peace: The Life of Yitzhak Rabin. NY: HarperCollins, 1998), who was Israel's Chief of Staff during the war, which says the Israelis initially were terrified that they had attacked a Soviet ship and might have provoked the Soviets to join the fighting. The Israelis were relieved when they learned it was an American ship, though Rabin remained concerned the mistake might jeopardize American support for Israel.30
Once the Israelis were sure what had happened, they reported the incident to the U.S. Embassy in Tel Aviv and offered to provide a helicopter for the Americans to fly out to the ship and any help they required to evacuate the injured and salvage the ship. The offer was accepted and a U.S. naval attaché was flown to the Liberty.
Many of the survivors of the Liberty remain bitter, and are convinced the attack was deliberate as they make clear on their web site. In 1991, columnists Rowland Evans and Robert Novak trumpeted their discovery of an American who said he had been in the Israeli war room when the decision was made to knowingly attack the American ship.31 In fact, that individual, Seth Mintz, wrote a letter to the Washington Post on November 9, 1991, in which he said he was misquoted by Evans and Novak and that the attack, was, in fact, a "case of mistaken identity." Moreover, the man who Mintz originally said had been with him, a Gen. Benni Matti, does not exist.
Also, contrary to claims that an Israeli pilot identified the ship as American on a radio tape, no one has ever produced this tape. In fact, the only tape in existence is the official Israeli Air Force tape, which clearly established that no such identification of the ship was made by the Israeli pilots prior to the attack. It also indicates that once the pilots became concerned about the identity of the ship, by virtue of reading its hull number, they terminated the attack. The tapes do not contain any statement suggesting the pilots saw a U.S. flag before the attack.32
None of Israel's accusers can explain why Israel would deliberately attack an American ship at a time when the United States was Israel's only friend and supporter in the world. Confusion in a long line of communications, which occurred in a tense atmosphere on both the American and Israeli sides (five messages from the Joint Chiefs of Staff for the ship to remain at least 25 miles — the last four said 100 miles — off the Egyptian coast arrived after the attack was over) is a more probable explanation.
Accidents caused by “friendly fire” are common in wartime. In 1988, the U.S. Navy mistakenly downed an Iranian passenger plane, killing 290 civilians. During the Gulf War, 35 of the 148 Americans who died in battle were killed by “friendly fire.” In April 1994, two U.S. Black Hawk helicopters with large U.S. flags painted on each side were shot down by U.S. Air Force F-15s on a clear day in the “no fly” zone of Iraq, killing 26 people. In fact, the day before the Liberty was attacked, Israeli pilots accidentally bombed one of their own armored columns south of Jenin on the West Bank.33
Retired Admiral, Shlomo Erell, who was Chief of the Navy in Israel in June 1967, told the Associated Press (June 5, 1977): “No one would ever have dreamt that an American ship would be there. Even the United States didn't know where its ship was. We were advised by the proper authorities that there was no American ship within 100 miles.”
Secretary of Defense Robert McNamara told Congress on July 26, 1967: “It was the conclusion of the investigatory body, headed by an admiral of the Navy in whom we have great confidence, that the attack was not intentional.”
In 1987, McNamara repeated his belief that the attack was a mistake, telling a caller on the “Larry King Show” that he had seen nothing in the 20 years since to change his mind that there had been no “coverup.”34
Israel apologized for the tragedy and paid nearly $13 million in humanitarian reparations to the United States and to the families of the victims in amounts established by the U.S. State Department. The matter was officially closed between the two governments by an exchange of diplomatic notes on December 17, 1987.
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chegitz guevara
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Ft. Lauderdale, FL Communist Party of Apolyton
Jun 2000
time: 00:19
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What Siro quotes from are official releases. These have about as much validity as the Golf of Tonkin incident. The USS Liberty looked nothing like the supposed Egyptian horse carrier. Furthermore, the flag, the antennae and the communication dishes obviously marked the ship as an American, and the Israelis had been reconning the ship via aircraft for six hours before the flight. There is absolutely no way they could not have known it was American.
You have to consider the context of the attack. The Liberty was an intelligence gathering ship, and the Israelis were up to stuff about which they didn't want the Americans to know. Israel has launched a surprise attack after Nasser accepted Soviet intelligence that Israel was planning an invasion of Syria (which it was). Nasser ordered the UN troops off of Egyptian territory (it should be noted that Israel never allowed them on Israeli territory in the 1st place), and sent a couple of tank divisions to give Israel the message that they would not allow Israel to attack Syria. Not only were they routed, but the Israelis attacked the retreating soldiers as they fled, ala the "Highway of Death" in Kuwait. By Day 2, both the UN and the US were demanding a cease fire.
The attack on the Liberty (day 4) coincided with the attack on Syria, an escallation of a war the US was already demanding the Israelis cease. If the attack on the Liberty were a "tragic mistake" as some apologists would have it, why is it that the attack concentrated on the section of the ship that housed the electronics and communications gear of the ship, and why did they jam the radio of the ship. Were it an Egyptian ship, it would have had no one to call for help, since the Egyptian air force had been destroyed on the ground.
As a final show of Israeli humanity, when it appeared that the Liberty would have to be abandoned, the Israelis destroyed several life rafts.
The only explanation is that the Israelis wanted the Liberty out of communications long enough for them them to finish the job before the US could send help (the US actually sent help immediately, thinking it was a Soviet attack, but recalled the fighters upon learning that the attackers were Israeli).
Dean Rusk wrote, "I still do not know at what level in the Israeli governement the attacks were launched, but I am convinced that it was not trigger-happy local commanders."
The CIA Information report, "Attack on USS Liberty ordered by Dayan," Nov 7, 1967. Also, CIA Information Report, "Comment on the known identity of USS Liberty," July 27, 1967, "He [the source] was empahtic in stating ... that they [the Israelis] knew what kind of ship the Liberty was and what it was doing offshore."
Why didn't Johnson pound the crap out of the Israelis? Johnson apparetnly concluded that it would be unwise to criticize Israel while the American public was celebrating the Israeli triumph in the Six-Day War (it was seen as a reversal of the Holocaust). Also, he fealt it would be easier to convince the Israelis not to attack the Syrians.
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gopher
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I eat my own poop
Dec 1999
time: 00:19
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The USS Liberty was, at the outbreak of the war, at L0,L0 (Lat and Long 0-in the Gulf of Guinea) and proceeded to the ME at top speed. At Rota, she exchanged her Portugeese and French language experts for Arabic and Hebrew specialists. It was at that time that the JCS orderded Liberty to be between 12.5-20 miles of the coast of the Siani.
The Liberty had an American flag waving, as well as the huge letters GTR-5 written on the bow (General Technical Research-NSA's official title for the spy ships). Elint recordings on the UAR and Israel commenced immediatly.
A common theory on why Israel attacked the Liberty involves a town called El Arish, a place where both Israeli Journalist Gabi Bron and Israeli Military Historian Aryeh Yitzhaki witnessed the execution of as many as 1000 UAR/Eqyptian POWS by Israeli forces. Israeli govt officials were worried about an incident if this leaked out, and, allegedly, ordered the assault on Liberty, claiming she was an Egyptian freighter El Quseir, that was 1/2 the size, and could only go 5 knots, while the Liberty was making 30 trying to escape.
Body of Secrets-Chpt 7, & NSA DeCom transcripts- Umbra/TS
As the final irony, the torpedo boat that fired the first torpedo, Motor Torpedo Boat 203, is on display at the Naval Museum.
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Sirotnikov
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<--- Yes, It's a "kitty" in a boot.
Feb 2000
time: 07:19
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quote:
Originally posted by chegitz guevara
What Siro quotes from are official releases. |
I quote things which quote some statements and official releases.
quote:
The USS Liberty looked nothing like the supposed Egyptian horse carrier. Furthermore, the flag, the antennae and the communication dishes obviously marked the ship as an American, |
Proof?
I have the CIA and the US investigations on my side.
You have some conspiracy theory.
I quote again:
"A CIA report on the incident issued June 13, 1967, also found that an overzealous pilot could mistake the Liberty for an Egyptian ship, the El Quseir. "
"The sea was calm and the U.S. Navy Court of Inquiry found that the Liberty's flag was very likely drooped and not discernible; moreover, members of the crew, including the Captain, Commander William McGonagle, testified that the flag was knocked down after the first or second assault. "
quote:
and the Israelis had been reconning the ship via aircraft for six hours before the flight. |
Source?
quote:
You have to consider the context of the attack. The Liberty was an intelligence gathering ship, and the Israelis were up to stuff about which they didn't want the Americans to know. |
In that context you actually justify the attack....
Spying is wrong. 
quote:
Israel has launched a surprise attack after Nasser accepted Soviet intelligence that Israel was planning an invasion of Syria (which it was). |
Yes, we all know how reliable those russian sources are.
Israel launched a surprise attack because Nasser provoked Israel and mobilized it's army for war.
Nasser was lied to by the Soviets. Soviets aren't known for their integrity.
Nasser then lied to Abdullah of Jordan, telling him he was winning the war, and inviting him to join it. That telephone conversation was recorded by Israeli intelligence.
This is why Abdullah started attacking Israel, who decided that as long as it's winning, we might as well win on all fronts.
The attack on Syria was meant to achieve strategic control of the Golan Heights. Until 1967, Syria used the Golan Heights to shell northern Israeli towns, because of the height advantage.
quote:
Nasser ordered the UN troops off of Egyptian territory (it should be noted that Israel never allowed them on Israeli territory in the 1st place) |
It was agreed to be a UN area, it doesn't matter under whose jurisdiction it was.
quote:
, and sent a couple of tank divisions to give Israel the message that they would not allow Israel to attack Syria. |
Nice to know what you call "a couple".
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Not only were they routed, but the Israelis attacked the retreating soldiers as they fled, ala the "Highway of Death" in Kuwait. |
source?
quote:
By Day 2, both the UN and the US were demanding a cease fire. |
You can't have Israel win, now can you
quote:
The attack on the Liberty (day 4) coincided with the attack on Syria, an escallation of a war the US was already demanding the Israelis cease. If the attack on the Liberty were a "tragic mistake" as some apologists would have it, why is it that the attack concentrated on the section of the ship that housed the electronics and communications gear of the ship, and why did they jam the radio of the ship. |
Because that's normally the first part you target in an enemy vessel??
quote:
Were it an Egyptian ship, it would have had no one to call for help, since the Egyptian air force had been destroyed on the ground. |
But the navy wasn't....
quote:
As a final show of Israeli humanity, when it appeared that the Liberty would have to be abandoned, the Israelis destroyed several life rafts. |
Source?
According to the official sources, Israel brought it's air rescue units to save those who remained there.
A fact remains that most did survive.
quote:
The only explanation is that the Israelis wanted the Liberty out of communications long enough for them them to finish the job before the US could send help (the US actually sent help immediately, thinking it was a Soviet attack, but recalled the fighters upon learning that the attackers were Israeli). |
So what exactly made the US to "forgive and forget" this attack?
Why US hasn't changed it's policy? We all know that the USA is no one's sucker.
quote:
Dean Rusk wrote, "I still do not know at what level in the Israeli governement the attacks were launched, but I am convinced that it was not trigger-happy local commanders." |
Who's he?
I have more sources which are more important
quote:
The CIA Information report, "Attack on USS Liberty ordered by Dayan," Nov 7, 1967. Also, CIA Information Report, "Comment on the known identity of USS Liberty," July 27, 1967, "He [the source] was empahtic in stating ... that they [the Israelis] knew what kind of ship the Liberty was and what it was doing offshore." |
"The sea was calm and the U.S. Navy Court of Inquiry found that the Liberty's flag was very likely drooped and not discernible; moreover, members of the crew, including the Captain, Commander William McGonagle, testified that the flag was knocked down after the first or second assault. "
quote:
Why didn't Johnson pound the crap out of the Israelis? Johnson apparetnly concluded that it would be unwise to criticize Israel while the American public was celebrating the Israeli triumph in the Six-Day War (it was seen as a reversal of the Holocaust). Also, he fealt it would be easier to convince the Israelis not to attack the Syrians. |
What?
Israel already attacked the Syrians.... so the point is loom.
And the "i don't want to go against my people" arguement is weak.
Had he told the Americans what (you think that) happenned, they'd change their minds in a second.
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gopher
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I eat my own poop
Dec 1999
time: 00:19
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Originally posted by Sirotnikov
Read my post!
quote:
I have the CIA and the US investigations on my side.
You have some conspiracy theory.
I quote again:
"A CIA report on the incident issued June 13, 1967, also found that an overzealous pilot could mistake the Liberty for an Egyptian ship, the El Quseir. "
"The sea was calm and the U.S. Navy Court of Inquiry found that the Liberty's flag was very likely drooped and not discernible; moreover, members of the crew, including the Captain, Commander William McGonagle, testified that the flag was knocked down after the first or second assault. "
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So during the 1st assualt the flag was still up? So why the hell did the Israelis attack her? Also, perhaps the airplanes could be mistaken, but what of the torpedo boats?
quote:
quote:
and the Israelis had been reconning the ship via aircraft for six hours before the flight. |
Source?
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Usually when you quote a report, you should read it all the way through 
quote:
You have to consider the context of the attack. The Liberty was an intelligence gathering ship, and the Israelis were up to stuff about which they didn't want the Americans to know. |
quote:
In that context you actually justify the attack....
Spying is wrong.
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Agreed! So stop trying to get Pollard free. And stop trying to steal our cruise missle tech
quote:
quote:
Nasser ordered the UN troops off of Egyptian territory (it should be noted that Israel never allowed them on Israeli territory in the 1st place) |
It was agreed to be a UN area, it doesn't matter under whose jurisdiction it was.
quote:
, and sent a couple of tank divisions to give Israel the message that they would not allow Israel to attack Syria. |
Nice to know what you call "a couple".
quote:
Not only were they routed, but the Israelis attacked the retreating soldiers as they fled, ala the "Highway of Death" in Kuwait. |
source?
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My last post has it.
quote:
Were it an Egyptian ship, it would have had no one to call for help, since the Egyptian air force had been destroyed on the ground. |
But the navy wasn't....
quote:
quote:
As a final show of Israeli humanity, when it appeared that the Liberty would have to be abandoned, the Israelis destroyed several life rafts. |
Source?
According to the official sources, Israel brought it's air rescue units to save those who remained there.
A fact remains that most did survive.
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Excuse me? Where on Earth does ANYBODY show that Israeli Air force units actually helped with the rescue attempt or even communicate the error or coords to US forces? Well, then again, if Israel quickly sent word to the US about it, there goes the theory that the Israelis were mistaken. My bad. I guess you guys really thought this one through:
quote:
quote:
The only explanation is that the Israelis wanted the Liberty out of communications long enough for them them to finish the job before the US could send help (the US actually sent help immediately, thinking it was a Soviet attack, but recalled the fighters upon learning that the attackers were Israeli). |
So what exactly made the US to "forgive and forget" this attack?
Why US hasn't changed it's policy? We all know that the USA is no one's sucker.
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Do you really want the US to change it's policy? You really want to be even more of a pariah? Ask South Africa how it feels.
quote:
quote:
Dean Rusk wrote, "I still do not know at what level in the Israeli governement the attacks were launched, but I am convinced that it was not trigger-happy local commanders." |
Who's he?
I have more sources which are more important
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Point still stands. Why didn't you punish the pilot? Or anybody?
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TCO
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Richmond, VA
Jan 1970
time: 00:19
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A lot of career naval officers and people with significant military experience (US secretary of State, JCS head, most of the top guys in LBJ administration other than McNamara, etc.) have said they think the attack was deliberate based on the nature of the attack (multiple platforms over several hours.) I don't put huge stock in McNamara. He has his own issues of credibility. See his retroactive look at the Viet Nam war (book) and compare to his performance in office.
How could the flag be limp if the ship was at 28 knots? (the explanation is not even consistent). FYI the ship was at 5 knots...
Also, the Holiday colors were placed up the flag pole during the fight (replacing the normal flag which was still intact but torn by the attack). Attakcs continued with the holiday colors hanging. "Holiday colors" is the sunday flag. It is bigger than the normal flag.
I agree that motive is the weakest part of the conspiracy theory. The one most often claimed relates to the siezure of the Golan Heights.
I don't think Israel is evil. But they've been caught lying before wrt various Mossad actions.
I don't think that the issue was properly investigated. From a technical standpoint of investigation. I have led JAG MAN investigations of mishaps at sea. If the issue were properly investigated and found to be a mistake, than I would happily trumpet that.
Last edited by TCO on 08-05-2002 at 00:15
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Sirotnikov
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<--- Yes, It's a "kitty" in a boot.
Feb 2000
time: 07:19
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quote:
Originally posted by gopher
Originally posted by Sirotnikov
So during the 1st assualt the flag was still up? So why the hell did the Israelis attack her? Also, perhaps the airplanes could be mistaken, but what of the torpedo boats? |
The flag was not discernible!
It wasn't windy!
quote:
Usually when you quote a report, you should read it all the way through |
1 - 0 for you
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Agreed! So stop trying to get Pollard free. And stop trying to steal our cruise missle tech |
We paid you for bombing your ship by accident.
Did you pay us for jailing polard by accident? 
In anycase, Polard was a damn fool who bragged and couldn't keep his mouth shut.
I feel sorry for him, but he brought his jail onto himself.
And obviously since he was indeed guilty, and you did catch him, I think it's only reasonable that you keep him.
quote:
Excuse me? Where on Earth does ANYBODY show that Israeli Air force units actually helped with the rescue attempt or even communicate the error or coords to US forces? |
Read my post:
quote:
Once the Israelis were sure what had happened, they reported the incident to the U.S. Embassy in Tel Aviv and offered to provide a helicopter for the Americans to fly out to the ship and any help they required to evacuate the injured and salvage the ship. The offer was accepted and a U.S. naval attaché was flown to the Liberty. |
1- 1
quote:
Well, then again, if Israel quickly sent word to the US about it, there goes the theory that the Israelis were mistaken. My bad. I guess you guys really thought this one through: |
How does that destroy that theory?
We were mistaken, and then we realized that, quickly trying to fix it.
Since when an acknowledgement of a mistake proves that it was intended?
quote:
Do you really want the US to change it's policy? You really want to be even more of a pariah? Ask South Africa how it feels. |
It's not a question of wanting.
I'm simply stating that the arguements brought to explain why the US didn't change it's policy towards Israel, assuming it was obviously an intentional attack, are not believable.
quote:
Point still stands. Why didn't you punish the pilot? Or anybody? |
Did you punish the US troops who shot at Canadian soldiers in Afghanistan recently?
Why not?
Because it was a freaking accident! Accidents happen!
I also remind you that :
quote:
Israel apologized for the tragedy and paid nearly $13 million in humanitarian reparations to the United States and to the families of the victims in amounts established by the U.S. State Department |
Last edited by Sirotnikov on 08-05-2002 at 00:24
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