08-05-2002 20:03									#1
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It's my observation that many people prefer to run science low, and buy it from the other civs. Others still follow the traditional reseach methods.

I have tried out both, and I must say I strongly favor research. Not only it's my style, it also seems better from the strategic viewpoint. If you buy techs, you won't get any faster than the best AI civ, while if you research, you can actually get ahead in tech.

Above that, if you research and decide to sell the techs you got, it's an instant source of income, one that can keep you running more science for even MORE tech.

What's your take on this?

	08-05-2002 20:09									#2
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Hi Solver:


Interesting observation. I tend to play a hybrid style. What I mean is that in the early game I set research low and just buy all my techs.

Later once I have a reasonable infrastructure in place I increase research a little but still lean towards a decent income.

Later still once I have many marketplaces, banks, libraries, universities, and 4-5 size 8+ cities I increase research even further, surviving on 5-12 gold per turn income. My tech buying at this point decreases, while I look for any buyers of my tech. I find that I'm usually behind only the strongest AI WRT to techs this way.

My two cents..............

	08-05-2002 20:16									#3
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Thanks for the opinion. This is exactly what I dislike - being behind the strongest AI. Generally when I'm behind in tech I don't feel too secure, either.

Also, I will usually play a game with less income from taxes, just for more tech... the income is there from the others.

	08-05-2002 20:29									#4
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I was doing fairly well in version 1.16f as far as researching and selling techs. But when 1.17f and 1.21f came out my playstyle had to change. I just couldn't stay in the lead anymore by pure research alone like I used to.

Do you play using the 1.21f patch and if so how do you maintain your tech lead?

	08-05-2002 20:32									#5
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Yes, I do now play with 1.21f patch, and don't maintain the tech lead anymore? I'm somewhere a tech or two behind the best AI all the time, and am not the world's most powerful country.

	08-05-2002 20:59									#6
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I haven't played enough with 1.21f to comment there but in higher level 1.17f games it wasn't worth having research infrastructure until the start of the modern age or just before. In those games buying tech and favouring markets over libraries and banks over universities was the best strategy. On Monarch even in 1.17f you could get and maintain a tech lead, so researching on that level was arguably more worthwhile.

	08-05-2002 22:10									#7
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DrSpike:

Agreed however I find that one must occasionally build libraries and unis only to maintain a respectable culture value.

	08-05-2002 23:28									#8
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When playing 1.17 and now 1.21, I have tossed aside my "peaceful builder" mindset and gone warmonger. Early game is essentially a large military buildup with science set low to gain cash for a massive upgrade of troops. Then I beat the crap out of anyone I can reach, gaining tech parity after I knock each civ down to 1 city. The main goal is a solid forbidden palace area set up early on, which gives you a huge production/commerce boost.

Ideally, the warfare is wrapped up by the early middle ages and then I build like crazy. If I got lucky, I probably rushed either the Sistine or Sun Tzu with a leader, breaking the cascade and allowing me to nail the other wonders at my leisure.

Basically, once I've hit the middle ages, I'm researching on my own. The AI typically jumps out to a large tech lead early on, and I have no intention of making bad trades (sure, I'll give ya masonry and ceremonial burial for warrior code... suuuurrre) and spend all available cash just to maintain parity. I'd rather use my upgrade gambit to attain a potentially dominant position for the balance of the game.

Monarch difficulty/Standard maps/Continents/8 civs, btw.

-Arrian

	08-05-2002 23:34									#9
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Nice input, Arrian. It's just a shame to see people to convert to warmongers, though.

	08-05-2002 23:37									#10
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Unfortunately early war is the best strategy no matter what your goal. Even on Monarch for a largely builder game you want more territory than you're going to get peacefully. Better taking it early than late.

	09-05-2002 00:02									#11
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Succinctly put, Dr. Spike.

My early warmongering is a result of my continuing search for "the game of ultimate power." I'm a wonder hog, I want a big tech lead, I want the most territory, I want the most people, I want the best culture.... you get the idea. More than that, though, I started setting little goals like getting Tanks before the AI has infantry... on 1.17. Clealry impossible playing as a builder.

I have discovered that the best way to guarantee I will get the wonders I want and a good tech lead is to create a desolation and call it peace (i.e. claim my continent in the ancient age, hoping like crazy I get a few leaders for wonders/forbidden palace).

Winning while playing a builder style is certainly possible, but I want more than just to win. I want to totally dominate the AI. And I want a high score, which requires that you be big, populous and happy as early as possible. Best way to do it? Kill, maim, destroy, burn, pillage, enslave...

-Arrian

	09-05-2002 00:16									#12
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Unfortunately (or not?) early war really is a must, just for territory, and for a peaceful game later. What changes is how much you kill the enemies.

	09-05-2002 00:57									#13
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I see here that war is a terrible necessity in Civ3.

I used to be a peaceful builder but got tired of all the strokes I suffered everytime the AI beat the living daylights out of me. So I became a major warmonger with a very minor in buildering.

Having suffered terribly for so long I agree with Arrians' assesment that it is a must to dominate the AI. No more peaceful building for me.

	09-05-2002 17:33									#14
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Playing emperor and deity games with default settings (standard/huge maps) there's no real alternative:

you won't be competitive if you're researching yourself. So stick your tax glider to 90 or 100%.

Only near the latest stages of the game you might aim for a (minor) tech lead.

Firaxis has made it this way, can't help that.

Below emperor I suppose a substantial tech lead is possible.

AJ

	10-05-2002 04:41									#15
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Getting a lead in research gives you an advantage on the battlefield; you have cavalry, whilst they have pikemen? Guess who's gonna win. If you have to trade for the techs, the AI already has the battlefield advantage and you're still playing catchup in that respect anyway.

Invest heavily in research.

	10-05-2002 05:37									#16
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quote: Originally posted by Solver Nice input, Arrian. It's just a shame to see people to convert to warmongers, though.

We warmongers have to stick to what we're best at

	10-05-2002 08:23									#17
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When I played Civ2 I would always build until I had tanks. Now I can't do that. I actually find the game to be more fun than it was before BECAUSE of Warmongering.

	10-05-2002 08:26									#18
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However, I like to keep my research bar at the point were I am going to make the most money for the fewest turns of research I can get. If going negative in money will get me that important tech a turn or two earlier, then I will go negative.

But getting a Tech in 4 vs. 5 turns, I'll take the 5 turns and the large jump in income.

	10-05-2002 23:27									#19
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I generally research in Ancient era Horseback Riding and Iron Working and then shut off research for a long long time. It's just not possible to keep up with the AI in research at Emperor, until the economic infrastructure and empire size are there. This is usually the onset of Industrial era or later for me. AJ/Dr. Spike say it is even later for Deity.

There are certainly exceptions to this of course. Monarch is the last level at which pure researcher/builder can be done IMO.

I don't see this as a bad thing. The military expansion required at the harder levels, particularly in the Ancient and Middle Ages is a tremendous amount of fun, whereas building by itself can get a bit tedious.

You just have to have enough money to not fall behind in certain vital techs like Chivalry, Military Tradition, etc.

	10-05-2002 23:31									#20
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I didn't try Deity yet, but I'll be upset somewhat if there will be no Researcher/Builder way to complete it, for racing for the military techs (Horseback, Iron), and shutting research down is somewhat contrary to my playstyle.

	10-05-2002 23:55									#21
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Hehe, keep hoping. I felt the same way when I started deity, and did grab a couple of spaceship victories because the AI is dumb at building them at times. But I had to grovel for most of the game. The thing is without warfare you'll fall behind in tech, and never have the best military. You are always on the back foot, and unless you are very lucky you wont get anything like the optimal amount of cities. The best a builder can do is fight a lot early, from say 1000BC to 1AD and take over 1 civ almost entirely. Then churn settlers to fill in the gaps and you'll have enough territory to keep up with the AI in tech, probably through maximising cash. You needn't fight except for defence post AD.

	11-05-2002 06:59									#22
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Having converted to being a warmonger, I tend to buy their techs early on when I'm not yet ready to smash them. Once I have a decent army in place, I'll go to war, and then stop short of wiping them out, sue for peace and demand every technology they have. If they don't comply, then I'll further reinforce my 'persuasion' by striking harder at more of their remaining cities. The later part of the middle, when I rule most of the lands I see, and have a decent infrastructure, I'll then go to peace, switch to Democracy, and start my own research into the Industrial age and beyond.

	12-05-2002 02:21									#23
	Re: Buy or research? Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

quote: Originally posted by Solver It's my observation that many people prefer to run science low, and buy it from the other civs. Others still follow the traditional reseach methods. I have tried out both, and I must say I strongly favor research. Not only it's my style, it also seems better from the strategic viewpoint. If you buy techs, you won't get any faster than the best AI civ, while if you research, you can actually get ahead in tech. Above that, if you research and decide to sell the techs you got, it's an instant source of income, one that can keep you running more science for even MORE tech. What's your take on this?

hi ,

tax 2 or 3 , science at least 5 never below that , normal 7, lux 1 maybe 2 , ....buy what's there if possible , trade only if its worth it , get lib and univ very early , ..

have a nice day

	12-05-2002 14:45									#24
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Panag, right, thats similar to my approach for getting as much science as I can.

	12-05-2002 22:09									#25
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quote: Originally posted by Solver Panag, right, thats similar to my approach for getting as much science as I can.

hi ,

however , you have to be carefull , if you start at deity the AI has a lot of units , and might sometimes put you in a tight spot , ...
he might start to blackmail ya , .......and then you , as the human player have to swallow any hard feelings , ...

of course , when you have a good tech race , and you get some key techs first , like fission and others , you can maintain peace with the civ's true power , ....

have a nice day

	13-05-2002 02:33									#26
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On occasion playing Emperor, I've taken the tech lead early in the middle ages - right around chivalry - and held it for the rest of the game. To do this I played traditional Civ2 style: maxing science at around 90%, building science buildings in every city, maxing out the cities. But to get there, I warmongered myself into a dominant position, and extorted the techs that allowed me to catch up and switch to republic. The only way to generate the science necessary to hold a tech lead is through early warfare (and the right circumstances among the other civs).

	13-05-2002 03:18									#27
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quote: Originally posted by Txurce On occasion playing Emperor, I've taken the tech lead early in the middle ages - right around chivalry - and held it for the rest of the game. To do this I played traditional Civ2 style: maxing science at around 90%, building science buildings in every city, maxing out the cities. But to get there, I warmongered myself into a dominant position, and extorted the techs that allowed me to catch up and switch to republic. The only way to generate the science necessary to hold a tech lead is through early warfare (and the right circumstances among the other civs).

hi ,

it depends , every game is different , and then there are the levels , so many factors , so many possibilities , .....

have a nice day

	13-05-2002 22:42									#28
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Civ3 has really turned my strategy upside down. I was always more of a builder than warmonger.. but somehow it's just not that viable in Civ3. I remember I used to love starting out on isolated islands in Civ2, but now I dread the thought of it. It's just Soooooooooo hard to keep up in Civ 3 (in higher lvls) when you are isolated.


Not saying that I'm completely tossing the builder strats out the window, but it's just so hard to do without warring.

My usual strategy goes as follows -

1) Research up to Literature (if I can get good amount better than 40 turns, then I will set science appropriately, if not, set science to minimum).

2) Get Great Library, turn science to minimum. Horde money and go to war (if applicable).

3) Once in Middle ages, turn science to as high as possible, beeline for chivalry, then theology. Turn science back down to around 40~50, and go do more warring I try to war as much as possible when I have an advantage (Chivalry, Military Tradition, Motorized Transportation) and stop when that advantage is gone.

4) By the Industrial age, I should have all the libraries, universities, etc. setup and ready to pull ahead in the research race. Idealy, my golden age would be triggered somewhere at this point after I turn democracy, but it really depends on what civ I'm playing since some are hard to keep from triggering early on.

Of course, not all my games go as planned, but this is usually the route I try for.

I tried pure builder/research strats, but it just doesn't work nearly as well.

	13-05-2002 22:49									#29
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hi

tip ; in the editor , put duration of golden age at 30 turns , we all love it , ......

have a nice day

Last edited by panag on 13-05-2002 at 23:21

	13-05-2002 23:12									#30
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I've found research is better. The only real reason is that the AI will often not sell me a tech for any less than my firstborn. My neighbor gets it for a song, they demand 10g/turn from me. So I just pump up research. If the AI trades me into the back of the pack, I'll steal some tech from a weenie civ that is no threat militarily.