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Velociryx
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of Candle'Bre
Apr 1999
time: 05:19
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'k....we've got a couple of threads going on different segments of the game....we're talking about society models, and combat engines, and magic systems....but one thing we're not talking about just yet is what demonstrably works!
To that end, I have a little assignment for anybody who's interested....c'mon...it'll be fun, I promise! Best homework assignment you've ever gotten!
What I would like you to do is....play computer games.
Specifically, play turn based, 4x style computer games....old or new, any genre (and if you need some old games, head to: http://www.the-underdogs.org for a quick fix).
Yep...play computer games, and report your findings back here...let's talk about games that have come before and how they executed various elements....we might learn a thing or two....no...strike that, we'll definately learn a thing or two, even if it is to learn what NOT to do!
Case in point: On another thread, I got a recommendation to play EFS (Empire of the Fading Suns - Available on the underdogs site). So...I duly downloaded it and am playing my first game (beginner level, all defaults, yada yada yada). And...it's surprisingly good!
I'll withold my full opinion till I have more time to study the game, but so far, I can say with authority that I like the way they handle in-game diplomacy, and think we could take some lessons from them in that regard, but the combat model is WRETCHED! When two stacks meet in battle, you get a popup box and a generic "explosion" sound happens, then you see unit health bars decreasing....when a health bar goes to zero, the unit is replaced by a skull and crossbones icon...and that's it. There is NO active involvement 'cept for right up front, before the "combat resolution" begins, where you can pick an overall strategy (normal attack, overrun attack, and...something else). Once you pick that though, it's totally out of your hands. They might as well not even HAVE the actual battle popup, cos you can't do anything with it.
So....I'll finish out the critique of the systems we can learn from in EFS, and if anybody else wants to take this "homework assignment" I'd be happy to have help with the research!
-=Vel=-
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Velociryx
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of Candle'Bre
Apr 1999
time: 05:19
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 Yeah well....see, I'm thinking I'd be getting all kinds of extra cool points if I was a teacher...LOL!
I'm just thinking....we have, in the Underdog site, a simply *amazing* resource....a library of games (some successful, some not-so-successful, some downright brilliant and far ahead of their time), and there may be lessons we can learn from that, to apply them in our own game. That, coupled with any other game(s) people who venture this way might have on their HDs should give us PLENTY of examples to pick and choose from....different ways of handling combat, diplomacy, magic....anything we can imagine....
My hope is that we'll hit upon a few really innovative ideas this way, be able to combine them with our own ideas to create something new and different, and use THAT as the basis for our implementation....
-=Vel=-
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Velociryx
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of Candle'Bre
Apr 1999
time: 05:19
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Was doing a bit of research re: the topic of this thread, and in particular, my own exploration of EFS....found out that the third attack option that I couldn't think of earlier was "Feint" - also found out that it doesn't work....it's exactly the same as making a "normal" attack....so there are essentially only two options to choose from, accessible from a popup w/buttons that overlays the "battle screen" - once you make your selection of attack type, the battle resolves automatically with no further input from you.
One thing we COULD get from this is a roughed out first version for the look and feel of our combat display, but in truth, I'd be disappointed if it stayed that way.
What I'm seeing is that, for the early iterations, we could have a zoom to battle view, with a popup overlaying it, broken out segmentally (by the three firing tiers), radio buttons allowing for the selection of standard or precision strikes for archers, standard or charge attacks for Cav (modified by the possible presence of pike, which would disallow those choices for either troop type).
Then, the current round would resolve...between rounds, you'd get another popup/button that would appear with essentially three things on it
An "option to withdraw" button, a "continue with the same orders" or a "change orders" button (which would bring the popup back up.
-=Vel=-
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Mongoose
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Harrisburg,PA USA
Apr 1999
time: 00:19
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I have a major beef with what seems to be all the rage in games with a diplomatic interface. To wit: AI opens diplomatic channels...usually with a threat or a demand. The player is normally frozen at that point until he takes a decision, without any ability to investigate or to recall data which he already possesses. Case in point: Your playing a game of SMAX and up into your diplomacy screen pops Guardian H'minee(sp., sorry). As usual, she either wants a tech or for you to declare war on the Usurpers... You can't check the map (to see that she has a Chaos rover right outside the base where you're a single turn from completion of a critical SP) or any diplomatic data you have (like the fact that Marr is pacted to your near neighbor Santiago.) The game demands that you take the decision almost blind. That's just terrible, in my book.
Imperialism 2 had it better. If entering an alliance would put you at war, the game told you so. If making peace would break your alliance, the game told you that. Furthermore, you could click into the diplomatic map to check for other repurcussions of what you were about to decide.
Consider this a plea for open eyed decision making!
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Zealot
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Lisboa, Portugal
Jun 2000
time: 05:19
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About LR II, the game is somewhat fun, but it had a serious problem with the "market wagon", since you had to click too many times if you wanted to buy ale for your troops, or wheat for planting crops in Autumn (Fall)  .
About EFS, dudes, I'm having some dificulties in understanding the game, and my goals there. So here's my fundamental idea:
Don't forget to make a Tutorial, and each button of the interface MUST have a small description of its action in a Tooltip!
Thank you.
edit: I hope you guys know what a Tooltip is. In case you don't, point your mouse pointer to the clock in the Start Bar, in the bottom right corner of your screen. After two seconds of mouse inactivity, you will see a yellow box with some text in it. That yellow box is a Tooltip.
Last edited by Zealot on 10-05-2002 at 05:33
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08-05-2002 20:06
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