12-05-2002 11:44									#1
	Firaxis: Did you intend to auto raze Wonders? Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

I've seen this mentioned elsewhere, but I discounted it as a bug. Besides, the fellow did not post a save.

The situation is thus: It's 1520ce and the righteous forces of enlightenment (AKA the Romans) are about to liberate Memphis from eeevil Alex and his Greek minions of doom.

Gentle Memphis is but a shadow of its former self. Most of the gentle folk have been drafted into the Greek Army of Darkness, leaving only some 13,000 citizens (1 pop) in a city once capable of completing a Wonder of the World (that cow Cleo beat me to the Great Lighthouse).

As the players enter the stage our Legions of Liberation are about to free the gentle folk of Memphis from the grasp of the evil ones. And I'll have another Wonder show up Red on F7.

But wait. As our crusading forces dispatch the last of the ghouls, we are greeted not with the no-brainer question of whether to install a governor or raze. No, we are greeted with the news that our Paladins have destroyed Memphis. Noooooooooo. This cannot be.

Never will there be that one extra Red entry in F7. We cannot believe that the Gods meant it to be so. Thus we turn our faces to the heavens and beseech great Jupiter and mighty Mars (Soren and Mike).

Oh exhulted ones. Hear the pleas of your grateful followers. Please deliver unto us our justly deserved gains of conquest errr, liberation. Please deliver unto us all of our Great Wonders so that we may polish them, and admire them, and give thanks to the Gods for their very existence, and count all the Red spots on F7.

::Maddly Munching M&Ms and washing them down with Beeerr!::

And here is the programme for our play:

Attachment: octavian04 of the romans, lighthouse ad.sav
This has been downloaded 2 time(s).

Last edited by notyoueither on 12-05-2002 at 11:58

	12-05-2002 12:53									#2
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Well, the autoraze function depends not on wonders, but on population and culture. Since the Lighthouse was built by Cleo and Alex captured it, it didn't generate culture for Alex's Memphis anymore. Hence, autoraze. But I think, the decision not to let a wonder generate culture for conquerors is right anyway.

	12-05-2002 13:17									#3
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I thought it should have continued, because it had cultural value greater than 0 at some time in the game.

The theory behind the auto raze is to prevent the following of settlers and taking cities as soon as they are founded, right? Well I don't believe that applies to cities founded in 3000bc that have built Wonders and are occupied 4500 years later.

Dunno. Maybe you are right and this is the intention of the designers. I'll chew away at M&Ms anyway.

	12-05-2002 13:25									#4
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Wouldn't the city have generated some culture for someone since its inception? That should be enough to prevent auto-razing.

	12-05-2002 22:50									#5
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quote: Originally posted by Skanky Burns Wouldn't the city have generated some culture for someone since its inception? That should be enough to prevent auto-razing.

Started out as Egyptian, taken by the Greeks which probably destroyed all improvements (or is it just cultural improvements that count re auto-raze?). It seems the Greeks never added any improvements before NYE 'liberated' it. The Greeks are usually better than that, but perhaps they were too busy with a Roman war to build anything there.

BTW, Great post, NYE!
[To make up for the small print of mine you commented on previously. If you really want to make it too small too read, try increasing the resolution on your monitor!]

	12-05-2002 23:02									#6
	Re: Firaxis: Did you intend to auto raze Wonders? Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

quote: Originally posted by notyoueither I've seen this mentioned elsewhere, but I discounted it as a bug. Besides, the fellow did not post a save. The situation is thus: It's 1520ce and the righteous forces of enlightenment (AKA the Romans) are about to liberate Memphis from eeevil Alex and his Greek minions of doom. Gentle Memphis is but a shadow of its former self. Most of the gentle folk have been drafted into the Greek Army of Darkness, leaving only some 13,000 citizens (1 pop) in a city once capable of completing a Wonder of the World (that cow Cleo beat me to the Great Lighthouse). As the players enter the stage our Legions of Liberation are about to free the gentle folk of Memphis from the grasp of the evil ones. And I'll have another Wonder show up Red on F7. But wait. As our crusading forces dispatch the last of the ghouls, we are greeted not with the no-brainer question of whether to install a governor or raze. No, we are greeted with the news that our Paladins have destroyed Memphis. Noooooooooo. This cannot be. Never will there be that one extra Red entry in F7. We cannot believe that the Gods meant it to be so. Thus we turn our faces to the heavens and beseech great Jupiter and mighty Mars (Soren and Mike). Oh exhulted ones. Hear the pleas of your grateful followers. Please deliver unto us our justly deserved gains of conquest errr, liberation. Please deliver unto us all of our Great Wonders so that we may polish them, and admire them, and give thanks to the Gods for their very existence, and count all the Red spots on F7. ::Maddly Munching M&Ms and washing them down with Beeerr!:: And here is the programme for our play:

hi ,

poor romans , snif , snif , ........
okay , all the city's size one are burned to the ground , because they dont want anything to fall in the hands of jupiter and his false religion , .... , .......

have a nice day

	12-05-2002 23:52									#7
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this is why i say captured wonders should produce culture

	13-05-2002 00:33									#8
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I agree that Wonders should produce culture for the conguering, er, liberating civ AFTER a few turns . If the canadians were to invade and take Hoover dam, it would eventually become Canadian, eh.

	13-05-2002 03:03									#9
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quote: Originally posted by UberKruX this is why i say captured wonders should produce culture

hi ,

even if they would , the poor romans still lost a wonder , .....
the gods must be crazy , .....

have a wonder day !

	13-05-2002 21:46									#10
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I thought size one cities were always razed, regardless of presence of wonders? Or am I just confusing CivIII with SMAC again?

	13-05-2002 22:02									#11
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quote: Originally posted by Fitz I thought size one cities were always razed, regardless of presence of wonders? Or am I just confusing CivIII with SMAC again?

hi ,

i believe that that is right , ......

of course in this case , the romans should not have starved all the people to death , ......

so much for a fast strike , .....

have a nice day

	13-05-2002 22:18									#12
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Wonders produce culture. Culture > 0 = no auto raze.

I think it is a bug in the auto raze code. Imagine the following:

Your capital gets captured. You aren't totally out of it yet, because you have allies who are at war with your enemy. So you gather your forces to retake Kingville.

Meanwhile, your nasty oppo has drafted the city down to 1 pop. Then *gasp* one of your allies takes it just before you. Boom. Gone. No joy.

I don't think that's how it's supposed to work.

	13-05-2002 22:26									#13
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither Wonders produce culture. Culture > 0 = no auto raze. I think it is a bug in the auto raze code. Imagine the following: Your capital gets captured. You aren't totally out of it yet, because you have allies who are at war with your enemy. So you gather your forces to retake Kingville. Meanwhile, your nasty oppo has drafted the city down to 1 pop. Then *gasp* one of your allies takes it just before you. Boom. Gone. No joy. I don't think that's how it's supposed to work.

hi ,

roman leader , please give more details on your zip-file ,

map , version , mods , .....etc ,...;

have a nice day

	13-05-2002 22:34									#14
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Standard, Large Continents, Normal Climate, Warm Temperature, 4 Billion.

1.21. Modded to add Coracle (seems to be the learner) and Naval Air (lethal bmb at sea).

	13-05-2002 23:12									#15
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Was Egypt still about? It might count the city as having no culture produced if the civ it produced culture for was destroyed.

	14-05-2002 00:00									#16
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Yes. Egypt was still going. In fact the city was on their cultural border.

	14-05-2002 00:41									#17
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither Wonders produce culture. Culture > 0 = no auto raze.

Not quite, as the city needs to have expanded. Thus, with the unedited setting: Culture >= 10 || Size >= 2 --> no auto raze.

	14-05-2002 11:13									#18
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I'm not positive that's the case Sir Ralph. Can you point me to where this is spelled out.

At any rate, the city once had a very large culture, as any 4500 year old core city would.

By the logic of the situation, when the enemy captures my size 1 city (I drafted) it remains intact. When I take it back the next turn, is goes poof. Intentional?

	14-05-2002 11:32									#19
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Just a quick $.02c,

From a historical point of view, I think this situation is quite realistic!! After all, aside from the Pyramids, where are all the Ancient Wonders of the World today?
In Civ2 I always thought it counter-intuative that, in-spite of all the vaguaries of warfare, and all the losses I'd suffered, all of my ancient wonders remained INTACT!!!
Can't help you with your actual question, though, NYE!!!

Yours,
The_Aussie_Lurker.

	14-05-2002 12:00									#20
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D*mn you for having a point Aussie.

	14-05-2002 12:21									#21
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It's nowhere spelled out, just my experience. For instance, if I make an early conquest with the intention to capture (not raze), I go for the enemy capital, since it is often the only city with any culture. Because I take the cities, it jumps several times in this process. Since the AI poprushes like mad if in trouble, I rarely get a chance to see the city size 2, so I need to wait till it generates culture. And I noticed, it doesn't suffice to go for the capital, you have to wait the 10 turns till the borders expand. If I capture the city earlier and it's still size 1, it's autorazed even though it already has a few culture points.

	14-05-2002 12:31									#22
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Ahhh, a good tid bit of information. Therefore it must be 10 before the city is protected from razing. Hence the possible bug. If it only looks at current cultural range, and not some stored 'memory' then the 'glorious' city of Paris is not protected on reconquest from the dastardly evil ones, even though it is the most significant 'city of light' in the world.

BTW. For anyone who wants to contribute to a good cause, go here and let your voices be heard.

	14-05-2002 15:46									#23
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quote: Originally posted by The_Aussie_Lurker Just a quick $.02c, From a historical point of view, I think this situation is quite realistic!! After all, aside from the Pyramids, where are all the Ancient Wonders of the World today? In Civ2 I always thought it counter-intuative that, in-spite of all the vaguaries of warfare, and all the losses I'd suffered, all of my ancient wonders remained INTACT!!! Can't help you with your actual question, though, NYE!!! Yours, The_Aussie_Lurker.

Pyramids, Great Wall, ummm... statue fo liberty, hoover damn, apollo program, seti, adam smiths, (all modern ones).

are the hanging gardens gone? i'd assume so but i would have really liked to see them.

	14-05-2002 19:12									#24
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I will often, in the process of mopping up from my ancient conquests, sit outside a city that has just become a capitol (since I "liberated" the former one) for 10 turns. Then the borders expand and I can take it instead of raze it to the ground.

Many of the ancient wonders of the world, incidentally, were destroyed via earthquakes, not conquest.

Colossus - earthquake
Great Lighthouse (Pharos) - earthquake
Tomb of Masolous - earthquake
Hanging Gardens - no one's really sure this even existed

You could say that the statue of Zeus @ Olympus was a result of conquest, as it was removed to Byzantium by the emperor, where it perished in a fire.

I forget the final fate of the temple of Artemis... and the seventh wonder escapes me entirely right now.

-Arrian

	14-05-2002 20:02									#25
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quote: Originally posted by Arrian ... and the seventh wonder escapes me entirely right now. -Arrian

Duh, Pyramids.

	14-05-2002 20:07									#26
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quote: Originally posted by Arrian I will often, in the process of mopping up from my ancient conquests, sit outside a city that has just become a capitol (since I "liberated" the former one) for 10 turns. Then the borders expand and I can take it instead of raze it to the ground. Many of the ancient wonders of the world, incidentally, were destroyed via earthquakes, not conquest. Colossus - earthquake Great Lighthouse (Pharos) - earthquake Tomb of Masolous - earthquake Hanging Gardens - no one's really sure this even existed You could say that the statue of Zeus @ Olympus was a result of conquest, as it was removed to Byzantium by the emperor, where it perished in a fire. I forget the final fate of the temple of Artemis... and the seventh wonder escapes me entirely right now. -Arrian

hi ,

the hanging gardes did existed , ......

have a nice day

	14-05-2002 20:18									#27
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither By the logic of the situation, when the enemy captures my size 1 city (I drafted) it remains intact. When I take it back the next turn, is goes poof. Intentional?

Sorry, this one I overlooked: The culture is preserved for each civ. In your example, the enemy has 0 culture in the city, but YOU have. So, if you retake the city, YOU have enough culture in it to keep it from being razed.

So, in your initial post, if Cleo would have taken Memphis back, the city would still exist. But neither you nor Alex had any culture in the city. This sealed the fate of the Great Lighthouse.

	14-05-2002 20:35									#28
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quote: Originally posted by panag the hanging gardes did existed , ......

...but probably in Nineveh (Assyria), rather than Babylon and
about 300 years earlier.

To flesh out the list:
Colossus at Rhodes, Tomb of Mausolus at Halicarnassus, Temple of Artemis at Ephesus(the second one), and the Pharos lighthouse at Alexendria were all destroyed by earthquake.

The first temple of Artemis at Ephesus was destroyed by fire on the date of Alexander's birth.

The hanging gardens, whether at Babylon or Nineveh, fell into ruin along with their host city, whether that is by fire, flood, earthquake, or conquest is unknown (Babylon would have been by Persian conquest, I don't know about Nineveh, but that also would have fallen into Persian hands, right?). The water cost of maintaining the gardens would have been scoffed at by the conquerors and they woiuld have fallen into neglect rapidly.

The statue of Zeus at Olympus, almost destroyed by conquerors when Caligula wanted it removed to Rome so he could replace the head with his own, was relocated to a museum in Constantinople when the Christians banned non-Christian temples and icons, and later destroyed by fire when Constantinople was overrun.

The pyramids are the only ancient wonder to remain standing, although stripped of their protective layer of polished limestone (that must have been a real sight).

...can you guess what was on Discovery last night

There is also a proposal to rebuild the Colossus using the same principles employed in building the SoL, so it could survive earthquakes, high winds, etc.

Perhaps there should be some means of rebuilding "lost" wonders in CivIII?

	14-05-2002 20:41									#29
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the wonder was rightfully razed. too much conquering and depopulation finally results in the piece being torn down. how many WoW are still intact?
as for culture production of capture wonders, the balance of the current rule is correct. you get the benefits, but not the culture per turn. by the way, why is the number red? you get a one-off transfer of the culture produced until capture?

	14-05-2002 20:59									#30
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quote: Originally posted by dawidge ...but probably in Nineveh (Assyria), rather than Babylon and about 300 years earlier. To flesh out the list: Colossus at Rhodes, Tomb of Mausolus at Halicarnassus, Temple of Artemis at Ephesus(the second one), and the Pharos lighthouse at Alexendria were all destroyed by earthquake. The first temple of Artemis at Ephesus was destroyed by fire on the date of Alexander's birth. The hanging gardens, whether at Babylon or Nineveh, fell into ruin along with their host city, whether that is by fire, flood, earthquake, or conquest is unknown (Babylon would have been by Persian conquest, I don't know about Nineveh, but that also would have fallen into Persian hands, right?). The water cost of maintaining the gardens would have been scoffed at by the conquerors and they woiuld have fallen into neglect rapidly. The statue of Zeus at Olympus, almost destroyed by conquerors when Caligula wanted it removed to Rome so he could replace the head with his own, was relocated to a museum in Constantinople when the Christians banned non-Christian temples and icons, and later destroyed by fire when Constantinople was overrun. The pyramids are the only ancient wonder to remain standing, although stripped of their protective layer of polished limestone (that must have been a real sight). ...can you guess what was on Discovery last night There is also a proposal to rebuild the Colossus using the same principles employed in building the SoL, so it could survive earthquakes, high winds, etc. Perhaps there should be some means of rebuilding "lost" wonders in CivIII?

hi ,

well there was Babylon , and even Athens had its hanging gardens , there where so many city's that had them , ........

have a nice day