13-05-2002 23:05									#91
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Actually, I thought Lord of the Flies was more credible with a bunch of american ****-faced cretins than with real children. See, real children don't actually behave according to the pseudo-christian myths propagated by the book- every time something aikin to the scenario in the book has happened the children managed to coexist peacefully and rationally. Golding, being a christian, has trouble accepting this.

	13-05-2002 23:16									#92
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yep, I agree... the kids in Lord of the Flies seemed very ... I don't know a word for it, maybe some of you can help me... all that "being the best" and "being the center of everything" was so apparent, and I've never seen it to such an extent in German kids, though it always appears in American movies... I think it's all the movies themselves, combined with a culture of career and success.

	13-05-2002 23:25									#93
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quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov The first Tremors was brilliant, how can anyone dare mock it?

Yes but the sequels were awful......they didnt even make the movie theatre I saw them on Sci-Fi. Apparently there have been 3. Each one the worms evolve more. Which is crap, i think. They crawled in the first. Which was cool. The second, the worms were really maggots. And smaller creatures burst out of them. The third, they flew. That right, FLEW!!!!! Whata flop.

	13-05-2002 23:30									#94
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All the Tremors films were low budget sci-fi fun at it's best!

Now Pearl Harbour is a terrible film.

	14-05-2002 01:03									#95
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Battlefield Earth
Howard the Duck
Head Over Heels
The American Presidents

	14-05-2002 02:37									#96
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quote: Originally posted by Snapcase Yes. I hear it got better in the second half, but up until the first hour it was a predictable, unscary and painfully boring horror which kept trying to scare you using the tried and tested "Scary Music - Footsteps in gravel - dark man sneaking - Boo! - oh, it's only the husband" tactic to induce *cough* suspense.

Aaah, talking about bad Harrison Ford movies, anyone seen Random Hearts? Poor Ford looked just like my father in that one

	14-05-2002 03:28									#97
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Moulin Rouge

	14-05-2002 04:06									#98
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Blair Witch project, The Musketeer

	14-05-2002 04:07									#99
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quote: Originally posted by Snapcase I think Showgirls is severely underrated. Parts of that script are totally classic- "In america, everyone is a gynecologist" etc.

And frequently naked women, I just recommend putting the movie on mute.

	14-05-2002 04:23									#100
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Tremors is a great film for campy humor. The sequels do suck though, or so I'm told.

Snapcase: I happen to hate LotF too, but you paint too wide a brush about being Christian. My problem is that his scenario is ridiculously implausible and he hits you with a sledgehammer to make his point. I mean, never mind what real children allegedly do. It's quite clear that the kids in his book are slaves to the point he wants to make and don't act anything remotely close to understandably. It's easy to write books where a group/society/whatever either falls apart catastrophically or manages to hang together and triumph, but the important thing is that it has to make sense within the bounds of the plot- which LotF doesn't. So I blame him being a bad author, myself. I think a point about original sin could be done a lot better and more subtly, and in fact can be done without some kind of horrible collapse as well- just because people are born bad doesn't mean they can't fight to overcome it and be good.

	14-05-2002 04:25									#101
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Original sin is such a **** concept, anyway. Stupid pessimistic self-limiting christians.

	14-05-2002 04:48									#102
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Battlefield Earth
How to make an American Quilt (rip off of The Joy Luck Club)
Earth Girls are Easy
Driven
Highlander: Endgame
Dungeons and Dragons (that Damadar guy overacts)
Star Wars Holiday Special

	14-05-2002 06:54									#103
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Let's not forget the "Friday the Thirteenth " series. I can't believe they're coming out with another one.

	14-05-2002 07:01									#104
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quote: Originally posted by Snapcase Actually, I thought Lord of the Flies was more credible with a bunch of american ****-faced cretins than with real children. See, real children don't actually behave according to the pseudo-christian myths propagated by the book- every time something aikin to the scenario in the book has happened the children managed to coexist peacefully and rationally. Golding, being a christian, has trouble accepting this.

I didn't see the remake, but there are a couple of things to consider about "The Lord of the Flies":
(1) They're supposed to be British "Upper Class Twits" kids, you wouldn't expect them to behave like normal kids.
(2) It's allegorical.
(3) I can't recall any similar real life incident, a group of 20 to 30 peri-adolescent boys being stranded without adult supervision for an extended period of time, ever happening. Could you provide specifics?

	14-05-2002 07:10									#105
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GOSFORD PARK - Buuuuuuuuuuuuuurn the thing!

	14-05-2002 07:14									#106
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Legally Blond, closely followed by Independence day.

Pearly Harbor is also a truly terrible film, unless one has it on DVD so you can play the battle scen three times instead of wahtching the surrounding garbage... Imagine taking the first and last hour of Saving Private Ryan, and putting that around the middle hour of Pearl Harbor. That'd be one great movie.

	14-05-2002 08:01									#107
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Stupid pessimistic self-limiting christians.

Assume for a moment that sin exists (maybe you already do). Do you think it is possible to live an entire life without committing a sin? Bear in mind that according to the Christian view of sin, this includes things like wishing somebody dead or thinking adulterous thoughts, not just actually killing the person or committing the adultery.

I think it's reasonably safe to say that it's pretty much impossible to live without comitting a single sin (never mind any alleged inborn preferences for sin). So, if that's your definition of self-limiting, fine.

However, it is eminently possible- and there are ten zillion examples- that people can live good and moral lives despite the existence of sin. And anybody who uses "original sin" as his excuse to behave like the kids in Lord of the Flies is not going to get very far, at least in my eyes- you're still responsible for yourself, and the limits placed on yourself are your own.

I realize you probably aren't up for a debate on this, but I just wanted to have this out for any onlookers mostly.

Getting back to the topic, in terms of modern movies, Deep Blue Sea is probably the most hillariously bad one I've seen somewhat recently that wasn't an MST3K.

	14-05-2002 08:02									#108
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I think the people who've criticized Starship Troopers and Tremors missed the point of both of them, as they're both hilarious sci-fi parodies.
The Mummy I & II were great in that it was fun to see what was blatently ripped off from Indiana Jones movies, and what was more subtly stolen. Besides, the little English kid called his mother "Mommy" so as to avoid confusion or something. GREAT! Which reminds me, I saw a horrible similar ripoff a few days ago from the late 80s "Allan Quartermain and the Lost City of Gold" with Richard Chamberlain, Sharon Stone and James Earl Jones. Delightfully Crappy! I love bad movies, but can't stand anything that actually tries to take itself seriously.
What Lies Beneath was there ( I too can't stand the building up music, and then the relief when it's nothing, that gimmick was overdone before it was invented)
Scary Movie (never saw the 2nd one) "Oooh, let's take the same scene but have something stupid happen, and change the characters' names to synonyms! Hilarity!"

I have more, but I'm being merciful now

	14-05-2002 08:09									#109
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The only films I have walked out on were L.A. Story and Anaconda (oh what was I thinking buying a ticket to that one...). I wanted to leave Twister, but had people on either side of me bolting my arms to the armrests...as I was their ride.

	14-05-2002 08:17									#110
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JKirk, starship troopers isn't a parody. It's based on the book that pretty much created military sci-fi. Excellent book, read it. Awful movie, burn it.

	14-05-2002 08:20									#111
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quote: Originally posted by CyberGnu JKirk, starship troopers isn't a parody. It's based on the book that pretty much created military sci-fi. Excellent book, read it. Awful movie, burn it.

Have you ever read the book "Armor" by John Steakley?

Excellent book in the same vein.

	14-05-2002 08:23									#112
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I have, but I didn't think it matched up to SS...

Have you read Jerry Pournelles 'Spartan' series? Probably the best military sci-fi there is.

	14-05-2002 08:25									#113
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quote: Originally posted by CyberGnu I have, but I didn't think it matched up to SS... Have you read Jerry Pournelles 'Spartan' series? Probably the best military sci-fi there is.

I've just recently gotten into military sci-fi. So I haven't read a lot of it yet.

Armor and the Legion of the Damned series are the only books I have read so far.

	14-05-2002 08:34									#114
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That's why it's a parody, I know it's from a Heinlein book, you can't look at the movie the same though, it's an utterly silly, moronic movie, and that's what makes it great. You can't look at it as you would "pure" scifi, it's just takes the book to an extreme, and pokes fun at Heinlein's alleged preferance for a fascist-type government. It's supermelodramatic, and the fascist propoganda that periodically shows up is great

	14-05-2002 08:38									#115
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well, there is also the 'Dorsai' series, but I can't remember who wrote it. It's pretty good up until the last book (which is thicker than the first six or so books combined...).

If you like more 'naval' military sci-fi (i.e. starships slogging it out instead of groud troops), there is David Weber. He is most known for his 'Honor' series, but I think his short semi-independent serie about an alien invasion is even better.

More light entertainment: the 'Flight Commander' series, by various authors.

Heavy and depressing naval scif-fi (think Hornblower 3000AD), the Hope series by David Feintuch. Stop when the first series does, though, and don't be tempted to keep reading about his sons adventures. Horrible stuff.

But most of all, if you liked Armor and SS, you will most likely love everything Jerry Pournelle has written.

He also has a whole bunch of books with David Niven that aren't military at all (except maybe for Footfall), and they are all ranging from pretty good to amazing (the amazing ones being 'Lucifers Hammer' and 'Legacy of Heorot', IMO).

Have fun!

	14-05-2002 09:11									#116
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About Starship Troopers - the book is serious, the movie is not. If you watch it in the right frame of mind, the propaganda bits are extremely hilarious.

	14-05-2002 09:21									#117
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Plenty of bad taste to go around at Apolyton. For instance I liked, loved or gladly tolerated the following movies which people mentioned here as their picks for worst movie of all time:

Fight Club
2001
Good Will Hunting
Austin Powers
L.A. Story
Legally Blonde
Gosford Park
Tremors
Something About Mary
Meet the Parents
Popeye
English Patient
What about Bob?

Some of these films I loved, like Fight Club, Austin Powers, There's Something About Mary, Meet the Parents. None of them however deserves a mention on a thread for worst films of all time. As Dr. Strangelove says, there were more horrible "science fiction" (actually grade c monster movies) made in the 1950s that could easily crush any competition that can be mustered today. Believe it or not most of them do not have any camp value unless perhaps you are completely stoned. Another excellent vein to probe for absolute sh!t are movies made in the 1970s which were designed to showcase or explain the new ethics of being a really cool adult circa 1973 or so. I hated this crap when it came out, and it's amazing how poorly it has aged. There are probably a hundred of these films that effortlessly trump anything on the list above.

My best guess as to why the films selected have been so poorly chosen is that most of the people who post here are young. Young people have more time to watch crappy movies, and tend to see them on cable or at the theatre, where your selection is very limited to what's in vogue. Older people do a lot less of that "It's Friday night and I don't have a date (again), what's showing at the Googleplex?" routine. They tend to do a little more research by reading reviews etc. They also tend to watch a lot of crap that their wife / husband wants to see, so it's a two-edged sword. But on the whole I think older people know what's going to suck more than younger people, and don't go see it. It's a function of experience and lack of time to waste.

For instance the vast majority of the films mentioned here were big budget major studio films. I saw the trailers and ads for these films, and perhaps interviews or reviews on TV or the newspapers. I knew those films would suck, so I didn't bother to waste my time with them. I am positive that the vast majority of the time I am right. One film I was sure was going to suck was selected for me by my host one evening. Independence Day was even worse than I thought it would be. I messed me up for a couple of days, until I broke down and rented its parody Mars Attacks. Though that film sucked too, it restored my faith that there are some people in Hollywood who can appreciate exactly how horrific Independence Day was.

I try to see as many independent, foreign and small films as I can. Generally they don't suck as much when they suck, because they have to compete for screen time / video space with thousands of others. There is a lot less competition amongst movies that can lay down 100 million $ for advertising.

	14-05-2002 09:35									#118
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quote: Originally posted by CyberGnu JKirk, starship troopers isn't a parody. It's based on the book that pretty much created military sci-fi. Excellent book, read it. Awful movie, burn it.

Good sci-fi is suppost to make you think. It posits a new order an plays its story to its logical conclusion. I must admit, I was Shocked! when I first saw Starship Troopers. The society it posited was real Roman Empire, where citizenship depended upon service and arrest, "fair" trial and execution took place within 24 hours. The movie glorified the military.

I was deeply upset by the movie. However it really got me thinking. Thus, it really has to rate up there as a good movie on this score.

Plus the battle scene at the fortress was the best I had ever seen until Saving Private Ryan. I was unnerved by it.

Ned

	14-05-2002 09:58									#119
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Ned, if the movie made you think, read the book. It's partly written so Heinlein can express his (partially) super-ultra-right-wing views.

Sikander, oh I hear you. I would rather have watched paint dry than legally blond, and that was even BEFORE I knew how truly horrible it was. But my gf picked it, and thereby loosing her movie picking priviliges for the foreseeable future. (We don't go to the movies that often, but in the last year I haven't picked a single bad one, while legally blonde was her third one in a row )

BTW, legally blonde was apparently filmed here at Caltech Campus, which makes me feel dirty every time I walk to the bookstore... *shudder*

	14-05-2002 10:12									#120
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My girlfriend and I have an agreement, which is mainly that we don't have to watch the crap the other person likes to pick. But a lot of the time we'll agree on what to see, when it's quality, but we definitely prefer different types of crap. Anyway, I had the pleasure of not being forced to go see Legally Blonde with her. I tend not to go to the cinema unless I really want to see something. But there's an older multiplex (god forbid, only 8 screens and immobile armrests!) that has a 2 tickets for $4.50 special on Tuesdays, so I can guiltlessly watch absolute crap there and not feel bad. When going I set my standards low and usually end up either being pleasantly surprised, or at least not annoyed, as a result of the lowered expectations. But anyone who has any taste whatsoever or any actual sense of humor should avoid the movie Slackers at all costs