14-05-2002 01:49									#91
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I too thought there was a good agreement...


However, when trying to sign it, Barak's representatives called Abu Ala and said "let's sign the deal, for future reference" he answered "the boss doesn't want a deal now".

as clearly as that.

so he doesn't want a deal.


and sharon - sharon wants to delay the deal, and then have a very pro-israeli deal. his deal is unrealistic.

anyway, while i morally acknowledge a fair deal should be made...

i do not want one. i do not trust the palestinains anymore.

	14-05-2002 01:51									#92
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why not? suicide attacks? they're acarried out by maniacs, not by the palestinians. though Arafat seems to be a weak leader. and then, what are they supposed to do, but that's on another sheet.

"he doesn't want a deal" - who? Abu Ala? is he still in such a position?

And Sharon seems to have played too much EU2, where you delay peace deals and conquer many provinces before finally getting a deal that is more favourable

	14-05-2002 01:57									#93
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abu ala talked about arafat who didn't want an agreement.


ecth. - face it. it's not "acts carried out by extremists".

it's a well organized, covered up by proper media control, revolution.

russian experts said it was going exactly according to the steps taught by soviet revolutionists to their allies.

1. civilian rebellion (first few months)
2. suicide bombs (since first months)
3. sniping roads (since first months)
4. commando groups sent to mid town (all last 12 months)

The 5th step was large (10 - 20) commando groups.

luckaly, IDF stepped in on time, so they are back to stage 2.

	14-05-2002 02:01									#94
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Do you seriously think *they* (whoever they are) were short before taking over control over all of Israel or so?

And I find it's worth a laugh how noone of you ever says a word about the civilians and they're water supplies being destroyed, although your admissions to caring are quite fair.

If only there was a wide-spread separation of people and leadership/militias, regardless popular support.

	14-05-2002 02:06									#95
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Marcus: The Kosovo comparison is ridiculous. Milosevic had expelled 800,000 people from the country in a few monthes, raped and murdered a smaller number, and even then we wouldn't have intervened except that we believed he was murdering tens of thousands. If Sharon is Milosevic, than Saddam Hussein is Hitler. I guess you'll start favoring the attack on the latter now?

As for the Likud decision, I suppose it does put Likud on the level of Arafat's Fatah, which has held since its creation that Israel must be destroyed through "armed struggle."

And as for the Saudi peace proposal, you have a misconception that it is a treaty - it is not. There is no real document which you could call a treaty. Instead, it's a series of vague demands which Israel has to fulfill. And one can't really fulfill vague demands.

	14-05-2002 02:12									#96
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they're goal wasn't taking over.

their goal was craeting enough ramble and chaos to bring international forces, and to force israel to respond harshley - which they could use for PR.

Notice how much PR has been put into Jenin? It was pre-planned. They wanted to have a "Jenin".

"Sadly" for them, we only killed 50-100 people there.

	14-05-2002 02:18									#97
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quote: Cut off the Pals money and say until you move to stop terrorism in a real way, you won't get any more money.

Why only the Palestinians? Why not boycot the Israelis as well as the Palestinians?

And why not move international forces in there while we're at it?

quote: And as for the Saudi peace proposal, you have a misconception that it is a treaty - it is not. There is no real document which you could call a treaty. Instead, it's a series of vague demands which Israel has to fulfill. And one can't really fulfill vague demands.

it can't be that one sided, since even the Americans are backing the proposal.

	14-05-2002 02:27									#98
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quote: it can't be that one sided, since even the Americans are backing the proposal.

It's not that it's one sided, it's that it's vague. And sayign that "The Americans are backing the proposal" is again attributing more structure to this than there is. We said that it was a "positive step" - we did not say "Great treaty, we expect Sharon to sign" because there is no treaty. And it is a positive step, but it's not an agreement; and it's not going to lead directly to peace until the Arab states either make it a real proposal or agree to negotiate it. Until then, it's the Saudi non-plan.

quote: And why not move international forces in there while we're at it?

International forces won't be effective until both sides have already reached an agreement.

	14-05-2002 02:32									#99
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quote: Originally posted by Sirotnikov they're goal wasn't taking over. their goal was craeting enough ramble and chaos to bring international forces, and to force israel to respond harshley - which they could use for PR. Notice how much PR has been put into Jenin? It was pre-planned. They wanted to have a "Jenin". "Sadly" for them, we only killed 50-100 people there.

Courageous... very much so, I'd be careful with stuff like that.

	14-05-2002 03:00									#100
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

quote: And why not move international forces in there while we're at it?

well , we've seen how effective UN forces have been in pre-67' Sinai, and how effective was UNIFIL from buffering the Israelis and the Hizballah. Also , major successes as the UNTAC mission spring to mind.

	14-05-2002 03:41									#101
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tell me more about UNTAC

	14-05-2002 05:05									#102
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Yep, this shows that Israel isn't for peace at all. The bill says that Israeli should NEVER recognize a Palestinian state. As you can see the Israelis come out of the woodwork so they can say their rascist country can't do no wrong .

And then they wonder why there is terrorism ?

	14-05-2002 05:24									#103
	Re: Israeli governement won't allow the creation of a Palestinian state. Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

quote: Originally posted by Saint Marcus Anyone who still thinks the Israeli's are anything other than oppressors is really living in a different world. I really don't think there is any difference anymore between the Serbs during the Kosovo war, and Israel today. The Serbs also refused a creation of a seperate autonomous Kosovo, same as with Israel and Palestine today. Also, the Serbs used military force to stop "terrorists" in that territory, like Israel is doing. Both also commited warcrimes. The only difference are the American double standards. **** Israel.

I hear that.

I think it's time the Palestinian people establish a country of their own. True, the Palestinian terrorists are horrible people, but the civilian pop is suffering.

I was watching interviews w/some Israeli's and they said that they didn't care, all they wanted was to live their lives in peace and not think about the next bombing.

*** Israeli militants, *** Sharon.

(but the average Israeli [and Palestinian] are aiight, its just the govt officials that suck ***)

	14-05-2002 06:45									#104
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So what's the matter? Why can't they send Helis with commandos at night and snipe down all guys that lead extremist groups?

If you truly think this is possible I want to know what have you been smoking?

Read this and tell me you still think this possible.

An Impossible Occupation

May 12, 2002
By SCOTT ANDERSON




Behind enemy lines with a platoon of elite Israeli
commandos, in a war they believe they must fight but know
they can't win.

http://www.nytimes.com/2002/05/12/m...7202a4bde333e05

EDIT: Typo

	14-05-2002 07:16									#105
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Huh... The ruling Likud party comes out and says 'we don't want peace, and we never will', and people act suprised... Wow...

Personally I think this might be a good thing. At least Bush can't deny it any longer, so maybe he'll put some more pressure on Israel.

	14-05-2002 13:28									#106
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Apologies for not being on topic here, but I have to reply to this:

Sava:
The figures below are from official Serb census figures -

1913 497,456 - No breakdown
1921 439,010 - (Albanian)65.8, (Serb)26.0, (Turk)6.4
1931 552,064 - (Albanian)60.0, (Serb)32.6. (Other)7.4
1948 733,034 - No breakdown
1953 815,908 - No breakdown
1961 963,988 - (Albanian)67.2, (Serb)23.6, (Other)8.6

I have figures for '48 quoted by some Serb author who was implying the same deliberate birth policy you seemed to be implying for the Albanians that gives them ~500,000 to ~200,000 Serbs.

I fear your Almanac has dodgy figures.

	14-05-2002 14:58									#107
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quote: . The bill says that Israeli should NEVER recognize a Palestinian state

Siro , it is the UN's operation in Cambodia , in the 90s. Read about that case . What a **** up.

	14-05-2002 16:06									#108
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the middle eastern conflict ended when Panathinaikos beat Macabi and everyone else for that matter

	14-05-2002 19:14									#109
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I think that war is good for extrem-right Israeli wings :
1) Give them a justifications to not allow Pals to have a territory.
2) Give justifications to continue settlement policies.

I don't think Israel whish to give back the occupied territories.

The Israeli gouvernment knows perfectly that nobody can stop terrorists actions while pals people are suffering from oppressions and from lakes of gouvernmental structures.

Let's create a Pals nation, send a tierce organization for peace keeping job and disarming terrorist groups.

	14-05-2002 19:59									#110
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yeah right.

the terrorist groups weren't disarmed by IDF, so they will be disarmed by a bunch of piss assed weenie pacifists.

	14-05-2002 20:23									#111
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Siro,

What do you want to happen? Realistically, that is. Option 1) Status quo. Option 2) Withdrawl, Pal state, UN peacekeepers. Option 3) Total war.

Choose, or present a realistic alternative. Inquiring minds wanna know.

-Arrian

	14-05-2002 20:35									#112
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quote: Originally posted by Sirotnikov yeah right. the terrorist groups weren't disarmed by IDF, so they will be disarmed by a bunch of piss assed weenie pacifists.

Would you care to comment on the actions of the "piss assed weenie pacifists" in Bosnia, Kosovo or East Timor?

It almost seems you believe your brave, fierce, victorious IDF as done anything yet to achieve a glimpse of peace or even security for that matter. Or are you trying to convince me that, after "Operation Defense Wall" you feel safer?

Next time, don't ask for solutions if that's the only kind of response you have for honest proposals.

	14-05-2002 20:39									#113
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quote: Originally posted by Ecowiz Returns Would you care to comment on the actions of the "piss assed weenie pacifists" in ... Kosovo ...?

They provided the KLA with a base from which they were able to destablise Macedonia.

Would you care to comment on thier actions in Lebanon?

	14-05-2002 20:47									#114
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quote: Originally posted by Ecowiz Returns Or are you trying to convince me that, after "Operation Defense Wall" you feel safer?

I feel much safer.

	14-05-2002 20:55									#115
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc quote: Originally posted by Ecowiz Returns Would you care to comment on the actions of the "piss assed weenie pacifists" in ... Kosovo ...? They provided the KLA with a base from which they were able to destablise Macedonia.

Any news on the terracts performed by KLA activist is Macedonía?

quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc Would you care to comment on thier actions in Lebanon?

Would you care to provide a date?

	14-05-2002 20:58									#116
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quote: Originally posted by Eli I feel much safer.

No longer afraid some crazy one blasting himself and you/your loved ones in your favourite pub, in the grossery shop or while you're waiting for the bus?

Good for you!!!

	14-05-2002 21:04									#117
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quote: The ruling Likud party comes out and says 'we don't want peace, and we never will', and people act suprised

I am, since it was Netanyahu (of all people) who signed Oslo. I always believed he was more a man of peace (or less a man of war) than Sharon. Seems I was wrong.

	14-05-2002 21:09									#118
	Re: Re: Israeli governement won't allow the creation of a Palestinian state. Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

quote: Originally posted by frankychan I hear that. I think it's time the Palestinian people establish a country of their own. True, the Palestinian terrorists are horrible people, but the civilian pop is suffering. I was watching interviews w/some Israeli's and they said that they didn't care, all they wanted was to live their lives in peace and not think about the next bombing. *** Israeli militants, *** Sharon. (but the average Israeli [and Palestinian] are aiight, its just the govt officials that suck ***)

hi ,

well with all the land in the arab world , .......that they give a piece , ......and if their civpop is suffering , ...

egypt had the gaz for a couple years , what did they do , nothing , when the Israeli's moved in they where welcomed by the local's , ......and they brought along , water , sewage , telephone , roads , railroas , medical care , and so on , ...

maybe Israel should start to kick out all the ones who claim to be palestinian , but have nothing to do with them , like people from jordan , iraq , and so on , .....this way the paletinian numbers are cut down with a third , .....

and their is hope on the 12th the parlement has voted a new law , the removal of all illegal aliens , ........
its a given fact that 67% of the crimes are comited by people from other countries , .....

oh yeah , there are a lot op "palestinians" abroad in the arab world , but no where else then Israel they can vote , .......

have a nice day

	14-05-2002 21:10									#119
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I may be mistaken but, to me, Netanyahu, is simply the kind of man that says just about anything to be elected. And now, he's after Sharon's place.

	14-05-2002 21:15									#120
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quote: Originally posted by Ecowiz Returns Would you care to provide a date?

quote: UN Probes Hezbollah Video Bungle BBC July 12, 2001 The United Nations has opened an internal investigation into what it described as the "mishandling" of a videotape that may provide clues about the abduction of Israeli soldiers by Lebanese militants. After months of denying the existence of the footage, the UN last week offered to give Israel a censored copy - with faces blurred - in response to demands from the Israeli Government. A spokesman for Secretary-General Kofi Annan said on Wednesday that the UN was "embarrassed and its credibility was hurt by what appears to be a mishandling of this event". The UN is caught between a rock and a hard place over the video, with Israel demanding the unedited footage and Hezbollah saying that handing it over would effectively make the UN spies for Israel. Possible Leads The video - made by UN peacekeepers some 18 hours after three Israeli soldiers were abducted in October - shows vehicles allegedly used by Hezbollah guerrillas. It is also reported to show the faces of guerrillas who prevented the UN peacekeepers from salvaging the vehicles as evidence. The videotape may support the Israeli allegation that the kidnappers were disguised as UN troops. UN Under-secretary-General Joseph Connor is to head the probe and has been ordered to report "as soon as possible", Mr Annan's spokesman Fred Eckhard said. Israeli Praise Israeli Defence Minister Binyamin Ben-Eliezer praised the UN decision to open an inquiry, an Israeli newspaper reported. But he repeated Israel's demand for "the entire videotape and any other information concerning the capture of the soldiers". There has been outrage in Israel that the UN at first denied the existence of the 30-minute video film, which may provide clues as to the fate of its soldiers. Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon reportedly exchanged "harsh" words with Mr Annan by telephone late on Monday. Mr Annan has reportedly apologised to Mr Sharon for the UN's initial denial that the tape existed. Suspicions Ordinary Israelis are deeply suspicious of the UN, which they say is dominated by countries hostile to the Jewish state. Many suspect its peacekeepers of taking bribes from Hezbollah not to interfere in last October's abduction - a charge the UN categorically denies. Many Palestinians, on the other hand, feel that UN is an American - and therefore pro-Israeli - lap-dog. Hezbollah is still keeping the men in a secret location and has refused to provide any information about them or a fourth Israeli captive until Israel agrees to release Lebanese prisoners it is holding as "bargaining chips" for missing Israeli servicemen in Lebanon. Although nine months have passed since the soldiers were abducted, Israel believes the video-tape may provide new clues for its analysts.