14-05-2002 21:38									#121
	Increase Your PM Length

It seems to be an interesting "bad guy - good guy" ploy.

The Likhud voted against allowing the establishment of a Palastinian state. On this occasion, Sharon was speaking against the motion and he was boo'ed on TV. The thing is, if these bums are so keen on putting their words in action, they could have ceased supporting Sharon, thus kicking him off from the office of the prime minister (I am not sure if they can do that, it seems a reasonable guess).

But they didn't. They just passed this non-binding motion. Big deal. It seems the whole thing is just designed to make Sharon look better.

	14-05-2002 22:01									#122
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: I may be mistaken but, to me, Netanyahu, is simply the kind of man that says just about anything to be elected.

And he dares to blame Arafat for being two-faced...

	14-05-2002 22:43									#123
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

Dino:
Thanks for the report.

First, my opinion:
There is nothing in the world completely imune to misuse and unlawfull utilization.
As far as I understood the news, it seems the terrorists used UN uniforms. That is an unfortunate possibility.
However, I think the Israelli government reaction was seriously out of proportion and with the intent to dramatize the situation in order to vitimize themselves even more.
If not, think of this. Not a long time ago, Palestinian terrorists, with IDF uniforms entered a settlement and comited a terract.
However, noone heard the Israelli Governement issuing an investigation or even claiming to exist some pro-Palestinian 5th column inside IDF. However, that would be the exact reaction one would expect if it had the same degree of paranoic demonstration of the Israelli Government's toward the incident in Lebanon.

Now, a few questions:
- In what way did this incident afected the results of the UN mission in Lebanon?

- What about Kosovo/Macedonia; Bosnia and East Timor?

	14-05-2002 22:48									#124
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

quote: Originally posted by Saint Marcus And he dares to blame Arafat for being two-faced...

Look, SM, Arafat has, in many ocasions been a bit two-faced.
Just because I honestly can't find any Palestinian better that can, still have some degree of control over this process, doesn't mean I think Arafat is doing a good job.

However, I would expect much more from the hugelly more civilized Israelli democracy.

	14-05-2002 23:19									#125
	Put an end to popups!

quote: However, noone heard the Israelli Governement issuing an investigation or even claiming to exist some pro-Palestinian 5th column inside IDF. However, that would be the exact reaction one would expect if it had the same degree of paranoic demonstration of the Israelli Government's toward the incident in Lebanon.

There are 1.2 Million israeli arabs, most of whom are of palestinian nationality.

Some, thankfully very very little, are indeed beginning to support the terror and for a year now, it is suspected that some arabs did give terrorists logistical support.

But don't think that Israel intends to take any steps against a legitimate part of the nation.

	14-05-2002 23:22									#126
	Remove this text

quote: Originally posted by Saint Marcus I am, since it was Netanyahu (of all people) who signed Oslo.

Did I miss something here?

	15-05-2002 02:11									#127
	Inflate your Upload Space

UR: I don't think it's a conspiracy. I don't think there's a way to remove a sitting Likud leader like that; and if there is, it's the sort of trauma no party wants to go through, especially given that he hasn't yet entered negotiations to create a Palestinian state.

Arrian: The problem is that it's not just a simple pick-one-of-three choice. The borders of any future Palestinian entity, and the extent of its powers, are not set in stone. Israel knows that, and the Palestinians know that. That's why there's a conflict.

	15-05-2002 03:57									#128
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

Marcus, Netanyahu didn't sign the Oslo accord, that was Perez and Rabin, something they shared the Nobel peace prize for (with Arafat, of course).

The effective death of Oslo came when Netanyahu came ot power, and he publically declared that he was not going to implement the Oslo accords.


Oddly enough, none of the ISraeli apologists here have commented on the lack of suprise that the Likud party doesn't want peace...

	15-05-2002 04:44									#129
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Nethanyahu publically declared that he won't implement the Oslo accords if the palestinians won't implement their part (fighting terror).

It was his famous coinage : "They give (security) they'll receive (land). They won't give (security) they won't receive (land)".


Furthermore - peace comes in many different ways.

I'm sure that the far right wingers want peace. Their vision of it is Palestinians living in Jordan.

What you mean, is that Likkud doesn't want a Palestinian state.

That's their decision. I think I've stated enough times what I believe.

If you want, I can repeat that.

	15-05-2002 05:03									#130
	Full PM-box? Change here!

What is expecting my answer?

I guess this is just like the rest of your case - nonexistant

	15-05-2002 20:15									#131
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: It was his famous coinage : "They give (security) they'll receive (land). They won't give (security) they won't receive (land)".

and now he says: They' won't give (security) they won't recieve (land), and even if they do give (security) they won't recieve (land)

tell me, what incentive do the pals have now to stop their terracts?


Anyway, this makes things all quite clear that Israel wants to fully annex the west bank. And already 40% of that land is occupied by jewish settlers (accoring to a jewish charity organisation), and is rising.

Why don't we just put the same sanctions on Israel as we put in Iraq?

	15-05-2002 20:56									#132
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

Just saw something this morning about a growing split in the Palestinians between Mohammed Dahlau (Pal security chief in Gaza) and Jibril Rajoub (Pal security chief in WB). Anybody know more about who these two people are, what their positions are, why the split, and is it likely to matter?

	15-05-2002 21:14									#133
	Increase the size of your Attachments

Jibril Rajoub, or Gavriel Regev, depends if you're a Shabaknik or not, is one of the best Palestinian leaders. His men were engaged in terrorism, but nothing really serious. His mother was Jewish.

	15-05-2002 21:16									#134
	Got spare money?

quote: His mother was Jewish.

He was engaged in terrorism, but it's not bad cause he's half jewish and tha makes him "one of the best Palestinian leaders"?

Probably not, so what makes him so good (besides being involved in terrorism and having a jewish mom)?

	15-05-2002 22:54									#135
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

http://www.cnn.com/WORLD/9605/30/israel.peace.loses/
http://www.cnn.com/WORLD/9607/10/ne...ress/index.html
http://www.cnn.com/WORLD/meast/9811...b.03/index.html

Netanyahu went to elections promising the death of Oslo.

	15-05-2002 23:00									#136
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

quote: Originally posted by Eli Jibril Rajoub, or Gavriel Regev, depends if you're a Shabaknik or not, is one of the best Palestinian leaders. His men were engaged in terrorism, but nothing really serious. His mother was Jewish.

IIRC, Hitler had a grandparent who was Jewish. But I don't think that helps his case much...

-Arrian

	15-05-2002 23:00									#137
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

screw him then

	15-05-2002 23:05									#138
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

Arrian : AFAIK , Hitler's stepfather was jewish.

oh, and I think Eli was joking.

	15-05-2002 23:38									#139
	Got spare money?

I'm not.

His mother was a Jewish woman who married a Palestinian and converted to Islam. By "best" I mean "moderate".

	15-05-2002 23:39									#140
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

quote: Originally posted by Dalgetti Arrian : AFAIK , Hitler's stepfather was jewish. oh, and I think Eli was joking.

Doh! Serves me right for skimming the lost couple of posts and jumping in.

-Arrian

	15-05-2002 23:39									#141
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

Eli was joking.

Jibril Rajoub has brothers in Isralei prisona nd has other brothers in Hamas (or Jihad).

quote: Originally posted by Adam Smith Just saw something this morning about a growing split in the Palestinians between Mohammed Dahlau (Pal security chief in Gaza) and Jibril Rajoub (Pal security chief in WB). Anybody know more about who these two people are, what their positions are, why the split, and is it likely to matter?

Mohammed Dahlan is quite close to Arafat.

Arafat has 2 main "secretaries" - Abu Ala and Abu Mazen.

Dahlan is of the Abu Mazen clan. The Abu Mazen clan is closer to Arafat now.

Rajoub is of the Abu Ala clan. So was the chief of Tanzim whom we arrested. The Tanzim was very weakened after Defensive Shield.

Still already 2 attempts at lives of people from the Abu Mazen clan.

quote: Originally posted by Saint Marcus and now he says: They' won't give (security) they won't recieve (land), and even if they do give (security) they won't recieve (land)

Not true.

He says they'll recieve land, only that a certain time has to pass in which they prove themselves, before they get complete statesmenship.

He says that giving them full state rights now would be stupid, since they are already in a terror mood and would use those rights for terror.

quote: tell me, what incentive do the pals have now to stop their terracts?

We are not responsible for that.

We gave them very nice incentives in 2000 and even in January 2001, in Tab'a, egypt.
Now it's their responsability.

quote: Anyway, this makes things all quite clear that Israel wants to fully annex the west bank.

First, you should admit you have no idea what you are talking about.

Who is "Israel".

The government? No - the govt. and Ariel Sharon in specific have already mentioned in different stances that a Palestinian state will be set up. It's simply not possible for him politically to restate this now.

The likud? No - in a poll conducted among likud members, 80% stated they believe that a Palestinian state will eventually be set up.

The people? No - in a poll conducted a week or so ago, some 60%+ said that they are interested in the Saudi proposal.

So what the fook are you talking about?

quote: And already 40% of that land is occupied by jewish settlers (accoring to a jewish charity organisation), and is rising.

I wouldn't believe that... it frankly seems too much.

20% - 30% maybe...

But then again, that's my estimate.

quote: Why don't we just put the same sanctions on Israel as we put in Iraq?

Because Israel behaves humanely towards the Palestinians?

Because we aren't cleansing a people?

Because we honestly tried again and again to reached a viable peace agreement and the other side decided to burn all bridges by starting a military resistance.

	16-05-2002 01:18									#142
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Actually Cyber, your links prove no such thing. The division of Jerusalem was never a part of the Oslo accords, and was never even hinted at, as far as we know, even in private, by Rabin, and part of the Labor platform as late as 1999 was that Jerusalem could not be divided.

The first piece is an analysis of Netanyahu, which really doesn't prove his intentions and certainly isn't a quote or declaration of intentinon on his part. In fact, Netanyahu went on to sign two peace treaties with the Palestinians, the Wye and Hebron accords.


Marcus: There's the problem. Why is it up to Israel to provide the Palestinians an incentive to stop killing innocent people? Would you use this justification for the Chechen terrorists who bombed the VE day celeberation in Russia? Terrorism has to stop simply because it is wrong.

	17-05-2002 16:13									#143
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

quote: Originally posted by Natan Actually Cyber, your links prove no such thing. The division of Jerusalem was never a part of the Oslo accords, and was never even hinted at, as far as we know, even in private, by Rabin, and part of the Labor platform as late as 1999 was that Jerusalem could not be divided. The first piece is an analysis of Netanyahu, which really doesn't prove his intentions and certainly isn't a quote or declaration of intentinon on his part. In fact, Netanyahu went on to sign two peace treaties with the Palestinians, the Wye and Hebron accords. Marcus: There's the problem. Why is it up to Israel to provide the Palestinians an incentive to stop killing innocent people? Would you use this justification for the Chechen terrorists who bombed the VE day celeberation in Russia? Terrorism has to stop simply because it is wrong.

hi ,



oh yeah , for all those people who seem to be agains t the nation of Eretz Israel , why dont you come to visit Israel and see with your own eyes , ...........

and then , only then should one put the zap on us , ...........

have a nice day

	17-05-2002 16:17									#144
	Put an end to popups!

quote: Because Israel behaves humanely towards the Palestinians? Because we aren't cleansing a people? Because we honestly tried again and again to reached a viable peace agreement and the other side decided to burn all bridges by starting a military resistance.

	18-05-2002 07:37									#145
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

I hereby declare you king of useful and thoughtful posts.