17-05-2002 10:23									#121
	Got spare money?

Well I've only studied a year of economics in university so far, and 18 years being the son of an oil exec, so I've still got a lot to learn, but I do understand that companies go out of business when they can't match stronger company's aggressive tactics.

And the whole whine-fest about Netscape is unfounded to begin with, considering they still make internet browsers to this day.

But maybe you can teach me about business.
About how it should be illegal to compete to the point of one business going out of business.
About how it should be illegal for companies to invest X amount of money into R&D or include basic services in operating systems.

You go do that, I'll be here listening, since you know so much more about it than I do.

(And FYI, I do plan to start my own business after I get some job experience after graduation)

	17-05-2002 10:36									#122
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quote: Originally posted by Asher (And FYI, I do plan to start my own business after I get some job experience after graduation)

Oh wonderful.

quote: Well I've only studied a year of economics in university so far, and 18 years being the son of an oil exec, so I've still got a lot to learn, but I do understand that companies go out of business when they can't match stronger company's aggressive tactics. And the whole whine-fest about Netscape is unfounded to begin with, considering they still make internet browsers to this day. But maybe you can teach me about business. About how it should be illegal to compete to the point of one business going out of business. About how it should be illegal for companies to invest X amount of money into R&D or include basic services in operating systems. You go do that, I'll be here listening, since you know so much more about it than I do.

I'm not going to teach you anything more, Asher. But I will tell where you can find some helpful information about the economics of business and the laws and regulations governing them. Check out the United States Department of Commerce website. You can find a lot information here about how the economy works. Or at least about how the economy is suppose to work.

	17-05-2002 10:38									#123
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quote: Originally posted by Cloud9 Oh wonderful.

Going to get some VC from my dad and make a video game design studio.

quote: I'm not going to teach you anything more, Asher. But I will tell where you can find some helpful information about the economics of business and the laws and regulations governing them. Check out the United States Department of Commerce website. You can find a lot information here about how the economy works. Or at least about how the economy is suppose to work.

I don't need to read that, I know how businesses should work.

Why do I need to read someone else's opinion?

Out of curiosity, what business experience do YOU have?

	17-05-2002 10:47									#124
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quote: Originally posted by Asher I don't need to read that, I know how businesses should work.

No, I don't think you do. That's exactly why I have pointed you to the site.

quote: Why do I need to read someone else's opinion?

It's not an opinion. IT'S THE LAW.

quote: Out of curiosity, what business experience do YOU have?

I read about it. I do a lot of research. I read about it because it is a subject that interests me. If the subject of business interests you as well, then why don't you do the same. What's the matter? Don't like to read things.

	17-05-2002 10:49									#125
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You can also find more information at the United States Department of Justice Antitrust Division website.

	17-05-2002 10:52									#126
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quote: Originally posted by Cloud9 No, I don't think you do. That's exactly why I have pointed you to the site.

quote: It's not an opinion. IT'S THE LAW.

Actually, it's not.
I think you misread it.

Read the transcripts or at least summaries from the recent trial with the new Judge, she's tossing out what you're mentioning left and right as it doesn't apply to the case. The States are having a real tough time...

quote: I read about it. I do a lot of research. I read about it because it is a subject that interests me. If the subject of business interests you as well, then why don't you do the same. What's the matter? Don't like to read things.

I don't like to read what the government wants us to believe, especially when at the same time the judge is tossing out the evidence as presented as it doesn't apply to this MS case, like you seem to think it does.

I strongly recommend you do your case research, since you enjoy reading so much.

	17-05-2002 10:54									#127
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I'm talking about how the economy works in general, Asher. Not MS specific information.

	17-05-2002 10:59									#128
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quote: Originally posted by Cloud9 I'm talking about how the economy works in general, Asher. Not MS specific information.

Well, that's funny because this thread is about MS.

Nice attempt to save your ass.

So you think in general it's not right to offer basic products to consumers for free as an addendum to an ever-evolving product, when they are widely accepted to be part of the original product anyway?

The reason why "the economy" doesn't work the same way here is because some of the laws don't work well with tech.

Stuff like IE is different because it's something new that got developed after the OS began shipping for the first time, and it slowly became such an essential service for operating a computer system that it got bundled in the operating system. Mac OS ships with a browser, Linux ships with a browser, Windows ships with a browser.

Obviously, Netscape was a known casualty.

Where's the lawsuit from Symantec about Windows Explorer lowering demand for their Norton Commander?

Where's the lawsuit from Corel about the bundled WordPad?

	17-05-2002 11:04									#129
	Put an end to popups!

Asher I suggest that before you even think about starting your own business that you pursue a degree in business management. You will learn a lot about how the economy works and the safe way to do business. Expand your mind! I strongly recommend it!

	17-05-2002 11:05									#130
	Inflate your Upload Space

quote: Originally posted by Cloud9 Asher I suggest that before you even think about starting your own business that you pursue a degree in business management. You will learn a lot about how the economy works and the safe way to do business. Expand your mind! I strongly recommend it!

That troll is getting really tedious, so I'm going to stop trying to argue with you.

It seems you don't even KNOW what you're talking about, so instead of talking about it you tell ME to "learn about it".

So very little effort, so very little effect. 2/10

	17-05-2002 11:07									#131
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I already tried reasoning with you, Asher.

Well I guess you don't know then, do you. Then that means I have won this arguement and I'm not going to say another word. I will not come back to read this thread further. 'Nuff said.

	17-05-2002 11:10									#132
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That's right, you won this argument by avoiding and changing the topic as you saw fit, then responded that I need to learn about it.

It's extremely poor form.

I suggest you go make another poll about the best way to kill yourself.

	17-05-2002 13:16									#133
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Asher:
"No, not in computers.

1 single chip architecture for PCs is DEFINITELY a good thing. And we have that. It's called x86. Athlons, Pentiums, Cyrixes, etc all run x86 as an architecture.

If we had competing ones (which we WILL in a couple years, mind you -- AMD's x86-64 vs Intel's IA-64), you'll have to download different patches for each architecture, you'll need to buy different software for each architecture, and it'll be a complete hassle to developers to actually make more than one version.

1 chip architecture is a VERY good thing in PCs."

Well, not for all computers, but let's stick to PCs anyway.

This only comes about because the instruction set is open, allowing other companies (ie AMD) to get in and produce their own versions. This allows competition.

Conversely, then, for a healthy OS market a standard set of APIs would need to be defined which would allow applications to be easily ported between OSs. Without something like this (that everyone would stick to) you wouldn't have a healthy industry.

These APIs would need to be pretty well carved in stone (like x86) so that you wouldn't be trying to hit a moving target. Since I can't see this ever happening, the only way to maintain some level of competition to help drive the market is to have multiple OSs available...

Is there another industry out there that has the same structure as the OS/application industry? I can't think of one offhand that could be used for comparison...Imran?

	17-05-2002 13:22									#134
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quote: Originally posted by Tolls This only comes about because the instruction set is open, allowing other companies (ie AMD) to get in and produce their own versions. This allows competition. Conversely, then, for a healthy OS market a standard set of APIs would need to be defined which would allow applications to be easily ported between OSs. Without something like this (that everyone would stick to) you wouldn't have a healthy industry. These APIs would need to be pretty well carved in stone (like x86) so that you wouldn't be trying to hit a moving target. Since I can't see this ever happening, the only way to maintain some level of competition to help drive the market is to have multiple OSs available...

Unfortunately this would definitely not work with software.

Unlike CPU instruction sets, OS APIs change rapidly with time. Look how often a new DirectX build comes out, for example.

There are general "multiplatform APIs" like OpenGL for graphics, and SDL(?) for audio, but for OS interaction they all function differently with the OS and programs, and all OSes frequently change their API calls as the product evolves, changes, and improves.

One possible solution to this is Microsoft's .NET. It's sort of like Java. The idea is if you have a .NET runtime on the computer (there are Mac, Unix, and Windows runtimes in development) it'll compile and run the code on multiple environments, on multiple instruction sets. Unlike Java, .NET doesn't restrict you to one specific language either. They can develop in tons of programming languages. The main .NET programming language is called C#. Microsoft designed it and submitted it to a 3rd party body to make it an open standard.

This is somewhat like a universal API for operating systems, and can be updated with a bit of ease too.

	17-05-2002 13:46									#135
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"One possible solution to this is Microsoft's .NET."

But would the structure of .NET be open to allow, for example OpenNET to be made, which would do the same thing?

"There are general "multiplatform APIs" like OpenGL for graphics, and SDL(?) for audio, but for OS interaction they all function differently with the OS and programs, and all OSes frequently change their API calls as the product evolves, changes, and improves. "

These are the sort of things I was thinking of...this limits the amount of rework for an OS to updating one (albeit big) product (ie OpenGL, or OpenAL). The problem with these is that they are both fairly low level. SDL is higher level, but not quite as flexible...it's largely a graphics engine, but there is an audio plug in of sorts.

My point, essentially, is that I can't see the OS market as a monopoly being a healthy market..at least for the tech side of things.


...
Oh...and GO TO BED!

	17-05-2002 14:17									#136
	Microsoft hotmail bashing Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

There is a story on slashdot that isn't too kind to microsoft; it did seem pretty outrageous. Some points:

• Microsoft silently added new privacy preferences to existing accounts and defaulted to allow them to share your information.
  
• As can be seen in this slashdot post and it's replies, hotmail doesn't allow you to use any browser other than IE. There seem to be no reason whatsoever to do this, because if you set any of the other browsers to identify itself as IE everything works perfectly.
  

	17-05-2002 15:59									#137
	Tired of ads?

quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui quote: The reason for bundling IE for "free" these days is to provide a infrastructural veichle to promote other MS solutions in fields where the MS still faces strong competitors - like the WMP. You have to explain this, because I don't see how it makes sense or how bundling IE leads to WMP getting stronger.

Except for the p2p kiddos who swap porn flicks over Morpheus and its ilk, most people encounter moives - trailers, promotional material, and even pay-porn, exclusivly through their web browser. The fact that IE is the de facto standard means that eveyone offering content on the Internet has to take into account what IE is guaranteed to support no matter what - WMP. Which incidentally does not support codecs MS feels are, em, unsuitable, for various reasons - such as DivX - out of the box.

	17-05-2002 16:23									#138
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quote: Originally posted by Asher Unfortunately this would definitely not work with software.

A bold assertion, for sure.

quote: Unlike CPU instruction sets, OS APIs change rapidly with time. Look how often a new DirectX build comes out, for example.

That's how history turned out, but I see no inherent reason for things to be that way. I pretty convinced, myself, that a bunch of stanardized core APIs, owned and updated by standard bodies like the IEEE would work pretty well, too. Would we go from Direct X 1.0 to 8.0 in two years? Nope. But we'd see the competition that leveraged a middle-of-the road achitecture with severe registry starvation into the speediest and most cost-effective hardware you can buy.

There is actually no reason to belive this couldn't happen with software too.

	18-05-2002 00:37									#139
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quote: Originally posted by Tolls But would the structure of .NET be open to allow, for example OpenNET to be made, which would do the same thing?

Yes, actually.
MS just gave away the source to a .NET runtime engine called Rotor, and I believe that's what Ximian is using to make "Mono", their .NET runtime (which is open source). Ximian's the same company who makes Gnome, etc.

quote: A bold assertion, for sure.

It WOULD work, but it wouldn't benefit anyone.

A perfect example of why it wouldn't work is OpenGL.
OpenGL is so very, very far behind from DirectX in terms of functionality that all the new features are added by the board makers in extensions, which means they need to give you new software every time to run those extensions anyway, which means they need to develop that code for each specific platform anyway. A large committee-style API group is simply slow to move. We'd probably still be stuck using Win3.1's API because "it worked", and graphics rendering would be stuck at the stock OpenGL 1.2 (blech).

It's certainly possible, but I don't see it actually benefitting the consumer.

I also don't see very many people who will be ready to run away from Windows, which they've used for years, and run on a different platform because it's $25 cheaper or free. Of course, the Linux zealots would be extremely happy and would throw a party, but I don't see many people outside of them actually utilizing that.

And what does everyone else get out of it? Stagnated development, frozen OS APIs, slow-moving committees changing things and requiring each developer to update their OS and how it handles APIs accordingly.

And then there's the support problem.
All software has bugs. It'd be a support nightmare if the same executable ran on many OSes with many settings and many developers and many quirks.

	18-05-2002 03:22									#140
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quote: Originally posted by Asher It WOULD work, but it wouldn't benefit anyone.

It would too. Me, for instance. Being responsible for software being deployed on a variety of platforms - from big iron, over unix servers to PC workstations, as well as a fair amount of dedicated hardware, I'd dead tired of all the games MS plays with semi-supporting various standards, "extending" and "embacing" them. I sometimes feel we spend more time more time working around interesting quirks in MS implemantations of things like Kerberos and LDAP than developing software.

Splitting MS up would at least stop MSs incentive to play these games. Which would add another 50% productivity to cross-platform projects overnight. But if all your work is being done in a MS environment then I can certainly understand you don't feel that particular pain.

	18-05-2002 03:28									#141
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

I don't understand your Kerberos comment, but it seems to be the typical troll these days against MS: MS extended Kerberos. MS' version is a superset, it should work fine with existing implementations and should cause you no headache.

quote: Splitting MS up would at least stop MSs incentive to play these games. Which would add another 50% productivity to cross-platform projects overnight.

Where did you pull that figure out of?

Splitting up MS would result in having an OS maker doing its own thing, and an Application maker doing its own thing. It would have zero effect on things like Kerberos and LDAP that you've mentioned.

The reason why the splitup was thought of was because people thought that if the OS and its Applications were split up, this would allow companies like Corel and Netscape to compete better.

Here's a newsflash: People don't use Office because of Windows. They use Office because everyone else uses Office. People use IE because it gets the job done and it comes with the OS. And do you know what'd happen if they bundled Netscape and IE with Windows? 90% of people would still choose IE anyway.

Splitting up MS accomplishes nothing. Absolutely nothing. That's why it's not even an option in this case, because somebody actually thought about it.

If you're doing multiplatform work, did it ever occur to you to use a multiplatform environment like Java?

	18-05-2002 03:46									#142
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quote: Originally posted by Asher I don't understand your Kerberos comment, but it seems to be the typical troll these days against MS: MS extended Kerberos. MS' version is a superset, it should work fine with existing implementations and should cause you no headache.

Look, Asher, it might not always have been so in this thread, but I'm kinda trying to have a serious conversation here. If you feel better throwing terms like "troll" around, perhaps I should leave it to you and your friend Cloud 9 to duke it out?

As for Kerberos, MS has hardcoded the resolution of the allowed time quanta a ticket is valid. Not only have they hard-coded it, they have also made their bracket a wee bit different from what most other manufacturers provide - enough so that any auth system relying on good tight clocking is going to "sync out" once every day or so. A lovely little feature to track down and correct. Correcting, btw, in this instance, meant resetting the other systems so they followed the MS "standard". I shudder to think of what would have happened hade some part of that setup not been under our direct control. And MS software is full of little nasty surprises like that.

quote: Where did you pull that figure out of?

Gut feeling, based on my own experience. I've got a bunch of MS projects Gant charts to back it up, but sinve there's no way I'm gonna post 'em here you can choose to believe it, or not.

quote: Splitting up MS would result in having an OS maker doing its own thing, and an Application maker doing its own thing. It would have zero effect on things like Kerberos and LDAP that you've mentioned.

Perhaps it would at least allow me to purchase a better Kerberos for Windows, no?

quote: The reason why the splitup was thought of was because people thought that if the OS and its Applications were split up, this would allow companies like Corel and Netscape to compete better.

And do you have any reason to doubt this?

quote: Here's a newsflash: People don't use Office because of Windows. They use Office because everyone else uses Office.

Actually, I use office because I think it's the best Office package available. But I wouldn't mind using it on a Sun Workstation, for instance, a market the MS App group will never have any incentive to target as long as they're busy by the, admittedly very profitable, word sells windows sells words sells windows loop.

quote: If you're doing multiplatform work, did it ever occur to you to use a multiplatform environment like Java?

The day they port the JWM to MRI scanners and Gene Splicers I'll take your advice under consideration.