15-05-2002 00:41									#1
	Microsoft screws up again! Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Read the story here:

http://zdnet.com.com/2100-1104-913219.html

What do you think?

Last edited by Mr. Nice Guy on 15-05-2002 at 03:14

	15-05-2002 00:50									#2
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Why do people insist on putting incriminating material down on paper ... in memos and other such things?

Are they stupid, or just so arrogant that they think they'll never get caught?

In the case of Micro$oft I suspect it is both.

	15-05-2002 01:27									#3
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quote: Originally posted by FrustratedPoet Why do people insist on putting incriminating material down on paper ... in memos and other such things?

Not on paper - it was an email...

quote: Are they stupid, or just so arrogant that they think they'll never get caught? In the case of Micro$oft I suspect it is both.

They do get caught. They have even been convicted. As as they have demonstrated they can get away with an unnoticable rap over the fingers anyway, so why not continue?

	15-05-2002 01:33									#4
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MSFT ba$tards, at least some of the dirty laundry is coming out

	15-05-2002 01:34									#5
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How much money does Bill Gates have again?

Oh yeah, he's such a screw up.

	15-05-2002 01:36									#6
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It's just anti-linux. What's the big deal?

	15-05-2002 01:38									#7
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quote: Originally posted by SlowwHand It's just anti-linux. What's the big deal?

It's anticompetitive.

	15-05-2002 01:38									#8
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Microsoft has proved over and over again that American courts are its home territory. Why should they care? It's not like what passes for justice in America will ever nail them.

Now, a class action suit by clueless nitwits using Outlook and getting burned by virii might actually work. If ten million people got ten million dollars each - and why shouldn't they, if McDs can be fined that much over hot coffee? - even MS would probably notice

	15-05-2002 01:52									#9
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quote: Originally posted by moominparatrooper Microsoft has proved over and over again that American courts are its home territory. Why should they care? It's not like what passes for justice in America will ever nail them.

Where ya from, Moomin? The EU hasn't done anything to Microsoft, either, despite having the jurisdiction to do so (they could place all kinds of restrictions on Microsoft in exchange for access to their markets). Ever thought that maybe it is because Microsoft hasn't actually broken any laws that deserve drastic punishment (like a $10,000,000,000 fine)? Or maybe where you're from, what passes for justice doesn't require proof of a substantial law being broken?

(edit: oops, 10,000,000 times 10,000,000 is $100,000,000,000,000 - ahh now that sounds like a fair punishment)

	15-05-2002 02:04									#10
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quote: Originally posted by Echinda Where ya from, Moomin?

Sweden. Which, I might add, in case you've got what passes for education in America, is a country in Europe. In the EU, in fact.

quote: The EU hasn't done anything to Microsoft, either, despite having the jurisdiction to do so (they could place all kinds of restrictions on Microsoft in exchange for access to their markets).

Maybe, just maybe, there are enough trade tensions between the US and the EU without us having to contribute to it by unilateral sanctions against a company that has proven time and time again that it owns American courts and all of that which - for lack of better expression - lives inside the Beltway.

Now, though, the US has offered the EU an opportunity on a platter, with the protectionist steel sanctions that GWBs come up with. Rumor has it M$ is among the companies that will eat the retaliation.

quote: Or maybe where you're from, what passes for justice doesn't require proof of a substantial law being broken?

Oh, come off it, will ya? I like America and admire most things American, but there are a couple of things that are really screwed up in your society - your juridical system being among those, certainly - and going all defensive about it ain't gonna fix it.

And M$ should get the Standard Oil and Bell treatment. Guess American legislators were more difficult to buy back then, though.

	15-05-2002 02:10									#11
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quote: Originally posted by Echinda (edit: oops, 10,000,000 times 10,000,000 is $100,000,000,000,000 - ahh now that sounds like a fair punishment)

I'm with you Echinda. I think M$ needs to pay a huge fine for damages to it's competitors and the all the states that have suited M$. That will stop them from using their financial power to bully competitors and give consumers the advantage.

But $100 trillion? That would shut down the company for good and put them in a huge debt. Sheesh, that's bigger than America's deficit problem. Way bigger!

	15-05-2002 02:12									#12
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quote: And M$ should get the Standard Oil and Bell treatment.

Why? Do you think that would actually help the consumer?

	15-05-2002 02:14									#13
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In the long run, yes.

	15-05-2002 02:17									#14
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui quote: And M$ should get the Standard Oil and Bell treatment. Why? Do you think that would actually help the consumer?

Nope, I'm only into it for pure spite.

Of course I believe the consumer will profit. The whole darn IT indudtry would profit, and you guys could certainly use that right about now. And it's even my firm belief that MS stockholders would profit.

But certainly we don't all need a rehash of the pro and conta arguments again?

	15-05-2002 02:23									#15
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quote: Of course I believe the consumer will profit. The whole darn IT indudtry would profit, and you guys could certainly use that right about now. And it's even my firm belief that MS stockholders would profit. But certainly we don't all need a rehash of the pro and conta arguments again?

Yes we do, because I'm not convinced at all. I think splitting MS in two would result in higher prices and NO benefits to consumers. Like when the Baby Bells were split off. All that led to was higher prices (no more economy of scale) and worse service.

	15-05-2002 02:28									#16
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui I think splitting MS in two would result in higher prices and NO benefits to consumers.

Actually, a remedy like this would increase competition which would lower prices and drive innovation. This because the competing companies would be working harder to give consumers the best products and services for the best prices.

	15-05-2002 02:29									#17
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So then monopolies are beneficial to the economy? Rather UNfree-market, isn't it?

	15-05-2002 02:31									#18
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I disagree, Imran.

Several super-huge comanies might provide cheaper prices, and cheaper services. That much can be true.

But, if there are only a few mega companies like Microsoft around, we have no competition.

That means, slower technology and product growth.

You see, competition produces better and better products every year. The same goes for technology.

No wonder our computing software has stangated in the last few years, because of monopolies. With computer hardware, there is good competition, therefore, we have 100 GB and 1.5 GHZ computers now, thanks to companies using innovation to "1-up" each other.


So, monopolies = bad and stangant growth. Competition = good and technology/product boom.

	15-05-2002 02:33									#19
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quote: Originally posted by Cloud9 Actually, a remedy like this would increase competition which would lower prices and drive innovation. This because the competing companies would be working harder to give consumers the best products and services for the best prices.

When they broke AT&T up we got higher prices and worse service. Monopolies aren't the evil things the capitalist pigs say they are.

	15-05-2002 02:37									#20
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Sorry to rain on your rant, Moomin, but I'm not American. You really should work on nailing down your facts before you go off. Like the famous McDonald's coffee cup - the punitive damages actually awarded by the court were approx. $480,000, not $10,000,000 (click here for the whole story).

And the EU hasn't done anything to Microsoft because they are concerned about trade tensions? Are you sure? Because they had no problems scuttling a 50 billion euro aviation merger between two American companies (GE and Honeywell) last summer that had been approved by American competition authorities. That's right, they told two American companies that they couldn't merge without suffering sanctions in the EU. Doesn't sound like a competition administration that has sold its soul to economic realpolitik as you suggest.

As for your allegations that Microsoft "owns" the US federal courts and US federal politicians... huh? How about some proof? If you've got what passes for an education in Sweden you might realize that even in the EU national laws require proof of corruption prior to conviction.

But, hey, what would I know. I'm just being "all defensive".

	15-05-2002 02:37									#21
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quote: Originally posted by Sava When they broke AT&T up we got higher prices and worse service. Monopolies aren't the evil things the capitalist pigs say they are.

Wrong. When the government broke up AT&T we got lower prices and better service. But then AT&T started gobbling up everything again and prices and went up and service went down. Makes you wonder if they'll reopen another antitrust trial against AT&T soon.

	15-05-2002 02:38									#22
	Remove this text

An email memo to Bill Gates is not evidence of anything. Gates has already effectively countered the previous "incriminating" emails by showing that they were taken out of context. If there's no email back saying go ahead and no evidence that anything was done its just so much electronic paper. The states case is crap.

	15-05-2002 02:43									#23
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quote: Originally posted by Cloud9 Wrong. When the government broke up AT&T we got lower prices and better service. But then AT&T started gobbling up everything again and prices and went up and service went down. Makes you wonder if they'll reopen another antitrust trial against AT&T soon.

Just what was it that AT&T gobbled up?

In any case AT&T was a government sanctioned monopoly (as were the railroads) as opposed to a virtual monopoly brought about by good business.

	15-05-2002 02:44									#24
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Seriously, Bill Gates is just trying to save and cover his butt. He's a Ferengi capitalist.

We aren't a free market if huge companies gobble everything up, not allowing the small companies to have any leeway or inspirations.

Heck, some small companies may have innoative ideas that will improve living standards, but get mashed and bashed into the ground by huge ones, just so that the huge companies can claim credit.


How sad. Makes me wish for the SMAC's Human Hive or something with regulated economy.

	15-05-2002 02:44									#25
	Remove this text

quote: Actually, a remedy like this would increase competition which would lower prices and drive innovation. This because the competing companies would be working harder to give consumers the best products and services for the best prices.

How? An OS company and an applications company would still be monopolies in their respective market... they wouldn't compete against each other at all.

quote: Wrong. When the government broke up AT&T we got lower prices and better service. But then AT&T started gobbling up everything again and prices and went up and service went down. Makes you wonder if they'll reopen another antitrust trial against AT&T soon.

Actually you are wrong... WAAAY wrong. AT&T hasn't gobbled ANY Bells up... they are merely merging with each other. AT&T is forbidden from going into local service and they haven't broken that.

And yes, after it was broken up there was higher prices and worse service. That was the only way the Bells could survive, since they did not have the economies of scale that Ma Bell had.

quote: Several super-huge comanies might provide cheaper prices, and cheaper services. That much can be true. But, if there are only a few mega companies like Microsoft around, we have no competition. That means, slower technology and product growth. You see, competition produces better and better products every year. The same goes for technology.

Depends on the market... competition in the OS market would be devestating. The one thing about the OS market is that it is a natural monopoly. The average cost if there were two OS's would be higher than for one. Furthermore, no matter how many OS's there are out there, one will always emerge as #1. Why? Because companies want an OS standard... one that is the main OS, so they don't have to write applications for like 15 different OS's.

	15-05-2002 02:45									#26
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Imran, I was gonna use the Intel/AMD exemple, but Soverign beat me to it. Do you honestly believe you could buy a 1.5 GHz chip for peanuts today if AMD had not come along and taken a big bite of complacent Intel a$$?

I understand your teleco deregulation turned out some strange results, but that's mostly because American taxpayers poured a lot of cash into old Bell. Now those who actually use the services pay for them, and that ain't half bad. In Europe, telecome prices have dopped noticeably after the deregulation - and service is as good as ever. In fact, being several countries, we have good opportunites to measure this - the totally deregulated teleco market in Scandinavia is cheap and upholds excellent service quality, the semi-monopoly in France is by far the lousiest in Western Europe and is pretty darn expensive too boot.

So, I'd say yes - I believe everybody except for Bill's ego would profit if they cut MS down to size.

	15-05-2002 02:49									#27
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui Because companies want an OS standard... one that is the main OS, so they don't have to write applications for like 15 different OS's.

Well, Imran, as a software shop manager let me tell you this is plain wrong. What we want are standardized, open APIs. MS hasn't exactly been forthcoming in this respect.

When I develop and deploy MRI scan software I don't give a flying funk 'bout whether MS also provides an web browser, a chat application or an office package.

	15-05-2002 02:50									#28
	Remove this text

quote: Originally posted by Cloud9 Wrong. When the government broke up AT&T we got lower prices and better service. But then AT&T started gobbling up everything again and prices and went up and service went down. Makes you wonder if they'll reopen another antitrust trial against AT&T soon.

There is no chance of that. If AT&T is succesful in selling its cable unit, on its current valuation it will be worth about $5 a share (about $17 B), it will be losing money and it will have focused its business on a market segment where everybody is going bankrupt. Check out this article for all the sorry details.

	15-05-2002 02:53									#29
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui Actually you are wrong... WAAAY wrong. AT&T hasn't gobbled ANY Bells up... they are merely merging with each other. AT&T is forbidden from going into local service and they haven't broken that.

Actually, they have broken it. They have gobbled up many of the local cable companies.

	15-05-2002 02:56									#30
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quote: Do you honestly believe you could buy a 1.5 GHz chip for peanuts today if AMD had not come along and taken a big bite of complacent Intel a$$?

And that was done through the market, yes? Thanks for proving my point.

quote: Well, Imran, as a software shop manager let me tell you this is plain wrong. What we want are standardized, open APIs. MS hasn't exactly been forthcoming in this respect. When I develop and deploy MRI scan software I don't give a flying funk 'bout whether MS also provides an web browser, a chat application or an office package.

Economically speaking, MS would still be a monopoly with competition. Companies pick ONE OS company in a natural monopoly market. And then you have it feed upon itself. Application designers make stuff for MS, and therefore MS is bought by more people, and thus applications make more stuff for MS.

OS business is one of those natural monopolies that even if you broke up MS, they'd STILL have an OS monopoly.