16-05-2002 21:59									#31
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well in that case you are somewhat right , chegitz. But premeditated murder leaves both victims to the mercy of their killers.

Ecthelion ... yes...

	16-05-2002 22:23									#32
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Wow. I was thinking to myself just this morning that this place was about due another gun control thread.

--"more guns because there is more crime, more crime because there are more guns?"

Anyway, the answer to your question is no. You are oversimplifying things. The second part is obviously false (guns do not cause crime), the first part is at best partially true (since people worried about crime will be more likely to be armed in whatever fashion, but this is not the entire story).

--"Many people buy handguns as a defense in their fear of crime."

However, the question was about guns in general, not handguns in specific. Most rifles and shotguns will probably be purchased for hunting.

--"Having a gun for protection is a sign of a feeling of lack of security."

Considering how much Europeans like to ***** about the US government, it's amazing they aren't happier about how many Americans want guns just in case the US government tries something exceptionally nasty...

--"However, Slowhand, in places where handgun ownership is banned completely, crime has dropped."

Like D.C. you mean?
Sorry, Chegitz, but crime rates correlate more closely with economic conditions than with gun ownership. The crime stats I've seen cover the latest boom period, so it shouldn't be surpring that overall crime rates have been declining (it's also interesting to note that country-wide gun ownership has been increasing during this time period). Now that the economy is suffering we may see a change in that trend.

--"what's the reason for that difference?"

Hard to say, actually. There's all sorts of social factors contributing to it. Keep in mind that vast majority of those homicides are drug and/or gang related, and criminals by definition aren't really going to care about obeying gun laws.

--"For some reason, it's easier to grab a gun in the heat of an argument than it is to grab a knife."

I've never seen this backed up. Last time I tried looking into it, it appeared that the "murder of passion" was the exception rather than the rule.

--"They are the gun suppliers for the criminal element in the US."

Any stats for this, again? Somehow I doubt you've got anything even remotely resembling proof. Texas is also not the only state with concealed carry, etc. Background checks on gun purchases are a national requirement (even for gun shows), not a state-by-state thing, so no gun sold legally anywhere in the US is going to be going to a convicted criminal.

Wraith
"Sir, talking with a Martian is like talking with an echo. You don't get argument but you don't get results."
-- Captain Van Tromp ("Stranger In A Strange Land")

	16-05-2002 22:43									#33
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quote: Hard to say, actually. There's all sorts of social factors contributing to it. Keep in mind that vast majority of those homicides are drug and/or gang related, and criminals by definition aren't really going to care about obeying gun laws.

won't that be the same in Europe? After all, we do have drug and gang related homicides as well, and criminals who don't obey gun laws. Or are their less drug and gang related crimes here (well, in Europe that is probably so, but is that also the case in Italy (homicide rate of 2) or Spain (homicide rate of 3, highest in Europe but still 1/3th of that of the USA)

	17-05-2002 00:25									#34
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--"Or are their less drug and gang related crimes here"

On that, I couldn't say. I don't know the European crime stats well enough, and I don't know how your governments break them down.
However, I would say that the US is far more agressive in the War on Drugs than most of Europe seems to be. I will also say that we have a historical precedent, the Prohibition, that shows exactly what kinds of things tend to happen in this country with exactly this kind of law. During Prohibition crime rates (including violent crime) skyrocketed. After Prohibition, crime rates dropped dramatically. They started upward again when the War on Drugs got rolling, and increased fairly steadily for a while after. It's only relatively recently that they've been going down again, and as I've said I think that's mostly due to the recent economic boom.
The US still has an individualist, anti-authoritarian tradition, far stronger than any in Europe, which is definitely a contributing factor. We just don't like to be told not to do things "for our own good".

Wraith
"Woo! I like destroying!"
- Gir ("Invader Zim")

	17-05-2002 00:47									#35
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more guns because there are more crimes because there are more guns because there are more crimes ...

(not counting the illegal possession of a gun as a crime in that respect, of course)

A bit more serious: I think the reason for both are more in the society. As a non-American, I could guess that the cowboy (who is usually seen as a gun with a man attached) is still very high in esteem in the USA, and the readiness to (prepare to) shoot therefore is higher. Of course, only in self-defense, but most criminals would twist the happenings until they have shot in self-defence (The judge certainly will think different about that).
Europe had two devastating wars, which lead to a lower level of acceptance of guns.
In that way, I think the higher level of gun ownership and of (capital) crimes is connected.
I wouldn't guess that the level of kills just to kill a certain person is higher in the US than in Europe. I would think that the readiness to use a gun in a quarrel or for robbery is higher in the US than in Europe. And this has to do with the acceptance of gun ownership. Of course it is impossible to change the acceptance by a law...

I don't think owning a gun necessarily makes one a killer, but it is a bigger temptation for unstable personalities. (Apart of that, it doesn't fit into my European mind why possessing something which has the sole purpose to kill people should be a civil right Sure, there are Europeans who think different)

	17-05-2002 01:17									#36
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Food for thought:

quote: Per capita, London has twice as many robberies and assaults, four times as many burglaries, about 50 percent more rapes and almost as many murders.

From John Tiernan's column in the New York Times this week comparing London and New York's recent crime statistics. Not sure how to verify that, but the NYT is usually pretty good at getting stuff like this right.

	17-05-2002 01:19									#37
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wow Adla, you really are out of whack. You dont REALLY believe that do you? Cowboy mentality? I liked John Wayne, but I dont own a few guns cause John Wayne does. Nor do I prepare to use them against anyone in a "Shootout". We do have a police force.


Where do you Euro's get your stuff from? You say we lack knowledge about Europe Culture?

	17-05-2002 01:22									#38
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quote: Apart of that, it doesn't fit into my European mind why possessing something which has the sole purpose to kill people should be a civil right

Amen

	17-05-2002 01:26									#39
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The majority of Gun owners use guns for Hunting, Security, and because they like they guns. Very few criminals buy guns legally.


Oh and Che. Your full of ****. I could go to some of the Chicago Nieghbors and buy a Tech-9 off some homie gangbangers for 20 bucks. dont need to go to Texas

	17-05-2002 01:29									#40
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quote: Apart of that, it doesn't fit into my European mind why possessing something which has the sole purpose to kill people should be a civil right

Maybe if Europeans hadn't already killed off all the wildlife on their continent they might understand that not all guns are for use against humans.

And perhaps comparing the number of despots that have arisen in Europe over the last hundred years and the number that have arisen in the US in the same time frame might convince some that there is something to the notion that an armed populace helps protect the republic from dictators.

I'm not sure about whether that last point is true or not, but it isn't obviously wrong.

	17-05-2002 01:30									#41
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quote: Originally posted by faded glory The majority of Gun owners use guns for Hunting, Security, and because they like they guns. Very few criminals buy guns legally.

Yes. Americans have a much higher tolerance about guns than Europeans.
Here, someone with anything but a hunting gun is saw as a psycho. Even hunting gun make many people feel uneasy.

	17-05-2002 01:33									#42
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quote: Originally posted by Echinda Maybe if Europeans hadn't already killed off all the wildlife on their continent they might understand that not all guns are for use against humans.

Yes. Of course.

Mmh... Are you aware that what make American look like crazy gun-lover is not the fact that there is hunting guns in their home, but the fact they can get handguns and rifles ?
I mean, you don't use an AK-47 to hunt ? Do you ?

(and on a personnal note, I don't hold hunters in high esteem, compensating for lack of confidence by shooting animals who don't stand a chance is not what makes someone look good in my mind)

	17-05-2002 01:37									#43
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I actually -Own- a Ak-47 spinoff. But no I dont keep it in my place. Its locked up in storage. My thing is I have 1 gun here. A .357 handgun. I dont use, nor have I any intention unless someone breaks in. Its locked, and is somewhere only I know. Not even my girlfriend has found it. Tho she knows I have it.

	17-05-2002 01:40									#44
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Akka I hunt. Do you think I shoot animals because of low self esteem!? No way... I enjoy the sport and the hunt. Its an awesome expierence to do what others did before grocery stores existed.

Plus Venicin is good

But lately, there is CWD (aka: mad dear disease) in the deer up here. So the state is rounding up as many as the basterds as they can. And there paying some hunters to get the area's where CWD is most concentrated

	17-05-2002 01:41									#45
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Technically speaking, if you have less guns, you have less shootings. And since guns are such an easy and efficient way to kill, it would be logical to assume that there would be less murders overall.


BUT REMEMBER SONNY BOY, GUNS DON'T KILL PEOPLE, PEOPLE KILL PEOPLE...


I'm for higher gun control standards... more efficient guns, like guns that will only be armed using finger-print identification, or DNA. Anything that makes it harder to get guns will help prevent the availability of illegal guns. It's a supply and demand system. If you have less supply, the price goes up. And if a handgun costs 3,000 dollars on the black market instead of 100, then less crackhead/poor criminals will have guns. Most professional killlers and organized crime organizations will still be able to get guns, but most of the time they are only killing each other, and not innocent civilians. Tighter gun control laws will also ensure that people who are true sportsmen and enjoy guns will still be allowed to.

	17-05-2002 01:47									#46
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quote: Originally posted by faded glory Akka I hunt. Do you think I shoot animals because of low self esteem!? No way... I enjoy the sport and the hunt. Its an awesome expierence to do what others did before grocery stores existed.

Yes.
Enjoying the stalk and the killing with zero risk for yourself shows a special kind of spirit that is very obvious in most of your posts

	17-05-2002 01:49									#47
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quote: Originally posted by Akka le Vil Mmh... Are you aware that what make American look like crazy gun-lover is not the fact that there is hunting guns in their home, but the fact they can get handguns and rifles ? I mean, you don't use an AK-47 to hunt ? Do you ?

I had two point in my post. I note you dodged the tough one.

	17-05-2002 01:53									#48
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quote: Originally posted by Akka le Vil Yes. Enjoying the stalk and the killing with zero risk for yourself shows a special kind of spirit that is very obvious in most of your posts

Should I?

Perhaps I give the deer a gun, to even it up a little?

Think about what your saying.

	17-05-2002 01:59									#49
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quote: Originally posted by Echinda I had two point in my post. I note you dodged the tough one.

I'm not responsible for the actions of my ancesters.
We had 3000 years to destroy our wildlife. Note that with only 200 years of existence, you're still able to reach a pollution level that is far higher than us. You learn fast

Oh, and I had only one point in my post. You managed to dodge in entirely

	17-05-2002 02:03									#50
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quote: Originally posted by faded glory Should I? Perhaps I give the deer a gun, to even it up a little? Think about what your saying.

?
Are you sure I'm the one that should think about what I'm saying ?

You are aware that your sentence means nothing ?
I mean, you ask "should I ?". Should you what ? I was just saying, half-joking half-serious, that it needs a special kind of spirit to hunt and that this spirit showed in your posts.

Well, you could try to hunt with a knife to even the odds.
A man with a knige against, let's say, a boar. Could be interesting.

	17-05-2002 02:06									#51
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My point is why put myself in harms way? There are enough dangers as it is. Ticks, Poiusin Ivy, always the possibility another hunter will mistake you for a dear.

	17-05-2002 02:12									#52
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quote: Originally posted by faded glory My point is why put myself in harms way? There are enough dangers as it is. Ticks, Poiusin Ivy, always the possibility another hunter will mistake you for a dear.

Of course there is no reason to put yourself in harms way.
There is no reason to kill animals as a hobby, though. The fact that you don't want to put yourself in harms way shows that you just want to kill without a fight and without risk, and it's the reason why hunters are not anyhow great in my personnal opinion.

	17-05-2002 02:15									#53
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What? You kill animals everytime you go to mcdonalds.You think Cow's and Chicken grow on tree's man??? Animals dont have feelings. And if they do, who cares your at the top, there at the bottom. Dont think that cow wouldnt eat you if it didnt have a chance! I cant believe Im hearing this. You must be a PETA nut.

	17-05-2002 02:15									#54
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So much for subtlty. I was referring to the distressing habit of European nations to spawn dictators in the 20th century (Germany, Italy, Spain, Portugal, Russia, Yugoslavia, Bulgaria etc.) and how a similar regime never arose in the US.

As for your point - no, I don't have an AK-47, I have two 30-06s and a 12 gauge. All hunting weapons, though I personally only use them for target shooting. As I was trying to point out, not all guns are built for killing people. Sure, some are. But not all.

	17-05-2002 02:21									#55
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I have a 30-06, .357, an Israeli spin off Ak-47 and .22. I dont use Ak-47, I use .22 at turkey shoots...and the 30.06 is for hunt.

	17-05-2002 02:40									#56
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Where does the animus against private ownership of guns come from? The reason for private ownership of guns is simple: to provide for self defense against criminals and against tyrannies and invasions.

Near the end, the Roman Empire banned private ownership of weapons. Banditry increased enormously. The lack of weapons certainly did not help when the Germans invaded.

Guns do not cause crime, they help prevent it to the extent the criminal knows or suspects the potential victim is armed.

I can imagine the police would be in favor of disarming the populace to make their jobs safer. However, the police cannot be everywhere at all times to protect you when you need it the most.

What I think we need are severe penalties for committing a crime with a gun. The penalty should equivalent to the penalty given if the gun were actually used to kill someone.

Ned

	17-05-2002 02:59									#57
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quote: Originally posted by faded glory What? You kill animals everytime you go to mcdonalds.You think Cow's and Chicken grow on tree's man??? [QUOTE] I don't have any problem to kill for food or defence. That's a natural process and it's not bad nor good. Killing for pleasure, on the other hand, shows a kind of spirit I don't like. [QUOTE] Animals dont have feelings.

Duh. Of course they have. Do you think your nervous system is anything different than theirs ? It's just more developped.
Though this last sentence is still to be proved...

quote: And if they do, who cares your at the top, there at the bottom.

Oh ok. Might makes right. Ones at the top have all the rights over ones at the bottom. Sure.

quote: Dont think that cow wouldnt eat you if it didnt have a chance! I cant believe Im hearing this. You must be a PETA nut.

I'm not a nut in any sense. Now well, let's be serious : I'm not for equality between humans and the others animals. Not because I think we've any Holy Right against other animals, though. Just because it's a species feeling ; I would protect my own species against others. Other animals do the same, again it's a natural process of self-preservation.
Though, I still loathe the pleasure to kill. It's more about the set of mind than the act itself.

And to come back to guns : I don't consider that it's a sane society the one that has to rely on guns to ensure that its citizens are protected. Praising gun spreading and individual defence lead to a culture of violence that will increase crime.
I want to use my right to not having to carry a gun to be safe.

	17-05-2002 03:45									#58
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quote: Originally posted by Akka le Vil And to come back to guns : I don't consider that it's a sane society the one that has to rely on guns to ensure that its citizens are protected. Praising gun spreading and individual defence lead to a culture of violence that will increase crime. I want to use my right to not having to carry a gun to be safe.

But you're not safe without a gun - you're European, it's only a matter of time before another dictator tries to sweep to power in your country *cough* Le Pen *cough*.

	17-05-2002 03:51									#59
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quote: Originally posted by Echinda But you're not safe without a gun - you're European, it's only a matter of time before another dictator tries to sweep to power in your country *cough* Le Pen *cough*.

Yes, *cough* 18 % vs 82 % *cough*.

	17-05-2002 03:53									#60
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quote: Near the end, the Roman Empire banned private ownership of weapons. Banditry increased enormously. The lack of weapons certainly did not help when the Germans invaded.

If the roman empire didn't ban private ownership of weapons, the empire would have fallen from the inside. the reason they did this was to avoid a civilian uprise.

quote: But you're not safe without a gun - you're European, it's only a matter of time before another dictator tries to sweep to power in your country *cough* Le Pen *cough*

we in Holland took care of our little problem, thanks to guns.

[/sarcasm]