18-05-2002 07:53									#91
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AFAIK most accidents/deaths still happen in
domestic enviroments.
example: america: guy enters his house, goes to bedroom
sees his girlfriend in bed with best friend,
takes gun, shoots the bastard!
ends up in jail

example: europe: guy enters his house, goes to bedroom,
sees his girlfriend in bed with best friend,
kicks his ass(and hopefully hers too),
gets drunks, feels misabelly for a few
weeks, picks up his life( maybe a more
cynically, but hey

guns do kill people!!

	18-05-2002 08:51									#92
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quote: I wonder, where does Cletus go to find one of them black market doctors when he gets shot while climbing over someone's fence? Do you reckon they're listed in the Yellow Pages?

If I was gonna commit armed robbery or breaking and entering, I'd make damn sure I knew where those doctors are

	18-05-2002 10:38									#93
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--"And how does he explain it all?"

Strangelove, I don't know what your problem is on this issue, but stop misrepresting opponents. I don't care what your opinion of Kleck himself is, lying about what his actual comments are is just disgusting.

What he says is

quote: The health system cannot shed much light on this phenomenon either, since very few of these incidents involve injuries

.

Wraith
If ignorance is bliss, why aren't more people happy?

	19-05-2002 01:20									#94
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quote: Originally posted by faded glory Che, your wrong. Weapons are shipped in like any others, ordered up by ruthless gangs and drugdealers. They dont have runners that go texas and bring back guns. Your still restricted to federal background checks. Sorry, I would like to a source. To point the finger at texas just seems so politically, like you.

Look, I'm just going by what the police said. The and the mayor pointed their fingers at Texas.

Wraith, as I have frequently noted, I'm (mostly) pro-2nd Amendment and the private ownership of guns. I do believe, however, that it should be regulated. I don't think that people with criminal records or people who are mentally unstable should have access to them. I think that you should, at least, be required to get as much training to get a gun license as is required for a drivers license. I support the waiting period, because it makes it a lot easier to weed out those who should have guns. I also believe that guns should be more regulated in their prodution, so we don't get so many cheep Saturday night specials which blow up in your hands.


BTW, I don't support shooting snakes. Snakes help keep the rodent population down.

	19-05-2002 06:42									#95
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Here's a study covering ten years in all fifty states that finds a strong correlation between high levels of gun ownership and dead children, even after adjusting for crime rates, urbanization, poverty, etc. Interesting.

quote: More U.S. Children Die Where Guns Are Common-Study Published on Friday, March 1, 2002 by Reuters by Christopher Noble BOSTON - Children are much more likely to be murdered, commit suicide or die accidentally because of guns in states and regions with higher levels of household firearm ownership, according to a new study by Harvard researchers. The study, published in The Journal of Trauma, is significant because it shows that the mere presence of firearms leads to more violent death among children aged 5-14, said Dr. Matthew Miller, the lead author. "When most people buy a gun, they do so with the presumption that guns make them safer," Miller said in an interview. "Our results suggest strongly that this presumption is not warranted and that the children that parents seek to protect with guns are instead being killed by guns." While other studies have shown links between teen suicide and guns, this is the first national study to examine the connection between firearm ownership and violent death among younger children, said Miller, associate director of Harvard's Injury Control Research Center. The study looked at data from all 50 states from 1988 to 1997. In that period, 6,817 children between 5 and 14 years old died from firearms: 3,447 from homicides, 1,782 from accidental shootings and 1,588 from suicide. The study showed that the five states with the highest gun ownership levels had many more firearm-related deaths among children than the five states with the lowest levels of gun ownership. The two groups of states had almost the same number of children, but in the high gun-ownership states there were 253 accidental firearm deaths compared to just 15 in the low gun-ownership states. There were 153 firearm suicides in the high gun-ownership states compared to 22 in the low-ownership states and there were 298 firearm murders in the high gun-ownership states compared to 86 in the low-ownership states. Meanwhile, the rates of non firearm-related suicides and murders in the two groups of states were much closer, leading Miller to conclude the increase in deaths was attributable to the higher number of firearm-related deaths. "The large difference in gun-related deaths compared with the low level of difference in non-firearm deaths allows us to say that guns are playing some role," Miller said. The difference remains even when the data is controlled for poverty, education and urbanization, the study found. "Although no conclusions about cause and effect can be made, this study provides compelling evidence that states with high firearm availability are states with high childhood firearm death rates," Dr. Therese Richmond of the University of Pennsylvania's Firearm Injury Center wrote in an editorial. The five states with the highest rates of gun ownership are Louisiana, Alabama, Mississippi, Arkansas and West Virginia. The five with the lowest are Hawaii, Massachusetts, Rhode Island, New Jersey and Delaware.

	19-05-2002 07:12									#96
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quote: Originally posted by mindseye quote: More U.S. Children Die Where Guns Are Common-Study

Actually, you could also say the same about animals. Now I understand why the Germans just accorded animals human rights. If the hunting of animals can be forbidden because they have a right to life, the there would be no further need for guns at all!

Ned

	19-05-2002 09:11									#97
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--"BTW, I don't support shooting snakes."

Well, I don't know anyone who goes out hunting snakes. However, when you're out after game you're often in places that snakes like to be. There are some pretty deadly ones in the US, so it's a good idea to have some way to handle them.

--"Here's a study covering ten years in all fifty states that finds a strong correlation between high levels of gun ownership and dead children"

This is exactly the kind of lame rhetoric that undermines your entire position.

Now, that article mentions a correlation between guns and suicide, attempting to imply that gun ownership causes suicide. This is not the case, and there are numerous studies to prove otherwise (and if you want a big, flashy example, compare Japan, with much higher suicide rates than the US but much lower gun ownership rates). The only correlation is that when a gun is available it will often be picked over other options, since guns are seen as extremely deadly.

Some of their other comments are incredibly stuipd.

quote: The study showed that the five states with the highest gun ownership levels had many more firearm-related deaths among children than the five states ith the lowest levels of gun ownership.

Well, duh. I bet that in areas with more swimming pools that more children die from drowning in a swimming pool. Guess they're deadly killers and should be banned, no?

Honestly, can't anyone critically read anything anymore? This is a perfect example of an extremely biased article. They don't even make an attempt to disguise it. Manufacturing consent, indeed.

Wraith
"We're a planet of nearly six billion ninnies living in a civilisation that was designed by a few thousand amazingly smart deviants."
-- Scott Adams

	19-05-2002 15:47									#98
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quote: More U.S. Children Die Where Guns Are Common-Study

Disturbing

	20-05-2002 08:33									#99
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quote: Originally posted by Wraith --"And how does he explain it all?" Strangelove, I don't know what your problem is on this issue, but stop misrepresting opponents. I don't care what your opinion of Kleck himself is, lying about what his actual comments are is just disgusting. What he says is . Wraith If ignorance is bliss, why aren't more people happy?

There's no lying involved here, this was all discussed in a previous thread about guns in which Kleck's work was quoted. His data included an estimate of the number of "DGU" incidents in which the defender believed that he hit the alledged assailant. The estimated casualties resulting from these incidents would exceed the number of gun woundings from all causes reported in that year by a massive margin. In the article quoted Kleck blithely dismissed this seeming inconsistency by suggesting that many of those wounded by "DGU" incidents must have been treated by "black market physicians" who evade the legal requirement to report gun wounds. Given that there is just no evidence of this humongus underground of scofflaw quack doctors his explanation is simply ludicrous.

	20-05-2002 08:36									#100
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quote: Originally posted by David Floyd If I was gonna commit armed robbery or breaking and entering, I'd make damn sure I knew where those doctors are

They're in the same place as E.T., Big Foot, and Jason Voorhees, just the figment of someone's over fertile imagination.

	20-05-2002 21:17									#101
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quote: Actually, you could also say the same about animals.

Sure, or even better: automobiles. However, here's a little exercise for you, Ned: make two lists: benefits of having animals around, and benefits of having guns around. Then compare the lists.

quote: Well, duh. I bet that in areas with more swimming pools that more children die from drowning in a swimming pool. Guess they're deadly killers and should be banned, no?

I suspect you missed the point of the article. The difference between swimming pools and guns is that no one is rationalizing the ownership of swimming pools by claiming that they save lives.

quote: and if you want a big, flashy example, compare Japan, with much higher suicide rates than the US but much lower gun ownership rates

I think the vast cultural differences concerning suicide make such a comparison muddy at best.

Regarding suicide:

quote: The only correlation is that when a gun is available it will often be picked over other options, since guns are seen as extremely deadly.

Maybe you missed this line: "(...)the rates of non firearm-related suicides and murders in the two groups of states were much closer". Guns were not simply the weapon of choice in more suicides & murders, there was a difference in rates. States with high gun ownership had far higher rates (i.e. per capita) than those with low gun ownership.

quote: Honestly, can't anyone critically read anything anymore? This is a perfect example of an extremely biased article. They don't even make an attempt to disguise it. Manufacturing consent, indeed.

Sigh. Sad when personal bias trumps reading skills. I think the point is that there is a cost to gun ownership, and that cost can be measured in deaths. This should be taken into account in discussions of the merits of gun ownership, and whether or not they actually make an environment safer - the subject of this thread, no?

	20-05-2002 21:41									#102
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--"There's no lying involved here, this was all discussed in a previous thread about guns in which Kleck's work was quoted"

Yes, and if you'll recal correctly that was more from me than it was from him.

--"Check the article again, and look for the bolded section."

You must have missed where I was talking about suicide correlation, then. His arguments are crap, and he (the researcher) at least has the grace to acknowledge that correlation is not the same as causation, but the article nevertheless makes those claims you've bolded.
I also notice that they only use the uncontrolled numbers in the article. They never really state how things turn out after they apply whatever they're doing for urbanization and whatnot.

Wraith
"If you can keep your head when all about you are losing theirs, you may have an exciting future as a guillotine operator"

	20-05-2002 22:31									#103
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Apologies to Wraith, I massively edited my response while he was penning his, which may have caused confusion.

quote: I also notice that they only use the uncontrolled numbers in the article. They never really state how things turn out after they apply whatever they're doing for urbanization and whatnot.

Well, they did state that "The difference remains even when the data is controlled for poverty, education and urbanization, the study found." The full article can be found at Journal of Trauma's web site, however it's available only to paid subscribers. Any subscribers around here (calling Dr. Strangelove...)

	20-05-2002 23:20									#104
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quote: Originally posted by Wraith --"There's no lying involved here, this was all discussed in a previous thread about guns in which Kleck's work was quoted" Yes, and if you'll recal correctly that was more from me than it was from him.

Yes, and it was either you or Berserker who provided the quotation and link from the passage in which Kleck makes the suggestion that perhaps the reason that such a large number of gun injuries from DGU had not been reported was the possiblility that many of the wounded criminals were being treated by "black market doctors". At that point I came down heavy on whomever about the sheer unlikelihood of this claim.

	20-05-2002 23:21									#105
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quote: Originally posted by mindseye Apologies to Wraith, I massively edited my response while he was penning his, which may have caused confusion. quote: I also notice that they only use the uncontrolled numbers in the article. They never really state how things turn out after they apply whatever they're doing for urbanization and whatnot. Well, they did state that "The difference remains even when the data is controlled for poverty, education and urbanization, the study found." The full article can be found at Journal of Trauma's web site, however it's available only to paid subscribers. Any subscribers around here (calling Dr. Strangelove...)

Nope. I'm an Internist. That Journal wouldn't do me a bit of good. I do get the Journal of Emergency Medicine complimentary though.