16-05-2002 16:01									#1
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The homicide rate in the USA is 7 to 9 times as high as that of western Europe.

At the same time, gun ownership is far higher than in western Europe.

Now my question is: Is the homicide rate so much higher because there are more guns in the USA? Or, are there more guns in the USA because people feel unsafe because of the high homicide (and crime) rates?

In other words, do guns lead to a higher crime rate, or are guns the result of a high crime rate?

If the former is the case, why aren't there stricter gun laws? If the latter is the case, why is the homicide rate in the US so much higher than in Europe?

	16-05-2002 16:23									#2
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I voted for "more guns lead to more crime" but I think that civilisation/mentality plays a major part.
I saw in a tv documentary that in Swiss, the reservist have their automatic rifles at home yet the crime level is much lower that in USA (in that documentary a man was arguing with his wife, got pretty mad and local police took his weapon in custodie till he will calm down)

Anyway guns allows to fragile persons to kill, unlike a knife or a hammer.

	16-05-2002 18:14									#3
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I believe the second poll option is obviously correct. Many people buy handguns as a defense in their fear of crime.

AS to the first option, I cannot see how having a gun means more crime unless you see having an armed robbery instead of a robbery as more crime-- It does lead to much more serious crimes/results-- deaths in instances where no one would die if no gun was available. I see that as a qualitative change but not necessarily a quantitative one, although I guess you could say that their is more crime if a robbery becomes an armed robbery/murder ( although you could get cute and argue that the increased number of deaths caused by guns actually REDUCES crime since people who are dead or incarcerated for a gun crime are unable to commit more crimes) .


The majority of homocides are acts of the moment where an angry person grabs what is at hand to strike out. If a handgun is right there, well , fatal results are common.

As one of my professors ( a career prosecutor) said, " generally murderers are some of the nicest people you know"-- His point was that good people can kill (often without really intending to) when the means are right there.

So readily available guns (reservists rifles are usually unloaded and/or locked away) will always lead to a higher murder rate. If the gun wasn't available, a murder could still occurr, but the more likely result is that many incidents resolve themselves with, at most, an assault ( often unreported).

	16-05-2002 18:51									#4
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Without guns an adolescent who try to rob a gas station will be chased with a baseball bat, but in front of a gun...

	16-05-2002 18:58									#5
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Texas allows concealed handguns, once a training class is completed.
Not too surprisingly, crimes against individuals has dropped.

	16-05-2002 19:01									#6
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Germany, Denmark, Holland, and UK have officially surpassed USA crime levels.

Gun laws didnt seem to stop the nuts in Europe.

	16-05-2002 19:03									#7
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Guns save thousands of peoples lives everyday. Wether it be an old lady who fires in the air to scare off a robber. Or a 7-11 clerk who blasts a mofo with a knife over a ladies neck.

	16-05-2002 19:07									#8
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So much for "American Crime".

	16-05-2002 19:11									#9
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On what concerns crime, establishing direct contemporary correlations between two facts is simply a mistake.

As far as I see, the fact that someone can get his/her hands on a deadly weapon automatically increases the probability of, when in rage or feeling threatened, killing someone.

As for the question about robery and armed robery: please notice that the moment an armed rober kills the person being robed you have two crimes, and not just one (putting asside the degree of the criminal action itself).

Having a gun for protection is a sign of a feeling of lack of security.
This feeling can either be justified: you live in some place with lack of police protection (or insuficient one) or you lead a threatening life where you can have to face others with equally deadly weapons (ex: a policeman; a security agent undercover; someone in a warzone). Either justification you may have, they are results of other problems that must be faced, without introducing a new one. The new oproblem is that the lack of security may have no justification. Without justification, by carying a lethal weapon a person becomes herself a danger: if feeling threatened or enraged she can kill. And, that, statistically is still a fact: you still find a significant number of killings with no justification whatsoever, being done by people who had no real justification to carry a gun.

	16-05-2002 19:17									#10
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Bottom line though, handgun violence has dropped significantly.
You can have all the negative opinions you want, the fact remains.

	16-05-2002 19:47									#11
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Guns don't increase crime, per se, they just increase the lethality of crime. People kill people, but the gun (as with any weapon) sure as hell helps.

-Arrian

	16-05-2002 19:48									#12
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quote: Germany, Denmark, Holland, and UK have officially surpassed USA crime levels

Source?

	16-05-2002 19:58									#13
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I dont know. I saw it on ABC worldnews tonight after the German went ballistic at the school. They said; violent crime in those 4 countries alone has surpassed American levels.

	16-05-2002 20:03									#14
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quote: Originally posted by SlowwHand Texas allows concealed handguns, once a training class is completed. Not too surprisingly, crimes against individuals has dropped.

However, Slowhand, in places where handgun ownership is banned completely, crime has dropped. In places where the police have been militarized, crime has dropped. In places where policing hasn't changed, crime has dropped.

Must be something in the water. Or maybe just a better economy has led to less people committing crime.

	16-05-2002 20:03									#15
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quote: Germany, Denmark, Holland, and UK have officially surpassed USA crime levels.

According to the UN, the homicide rate in those countries is about 9 times lower than in the USA.

According to the Economist, crime rate in Holland is lower than in the USA.

	16-05-2002 20:04									#16
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Bullshit, Che.
You don't keep criminals from having guns.

	16-05-2002 20:04									#17
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Really Mark, then why the switch to the right? Why is it such a big issue? eh?

	16-05-2002 20:06									#18
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even better question:

more post count reduction because there's more spam, more spam becuase there are more post ocunt reductions?

	16-05-2002 20:08									#19
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quote: Really Mark, then why the switch to the right? Why is it such a big issue? eh?

Just because people feel unsafe doesn't mean it is unsafe.

That was also in The Economist btw.

	16-05-2002 20:16									#20
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quote: Originally posted by SlowwHand Bullshit, Che. You don't keep criminals from having guns.

In the City of Chicago, only police officers are allowed to own hand guns. Obviously, it's fairly easy for criminals to get guns by going down to Texas and purchasing large quantities and bringing them up to sell on the black market. Doesn't change the fact that the crime rate in Chicago has dropped, despite victims not being able to carry guns legally.

Since the drop in crime is more or less universal across the US, it makes sense that something other than local policies are having an effect. A much more likly cause must be found in broad demographic trends. The one constant throughout the US was a rising economy. When people aren't as desperate economically, they are less likely to turn to violent crime.

	16-05-2002 20:20									#21
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The Media + Rightwing Politicians always report about high crimerates, etc blabla. While in Reality crime rates have slightly droped. Its all about scaring ppl. to get quotes/votes.

	16-05-2002 20:21									#22
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I don't get why people still post in threads on gun matters. I thought these had died out months ago already, if not years!

	16-05-2002 20:22									#23
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quote: The Media + Rightwing Politicians always report about high crimerates, etc blabla. While in Reality crime rates have slightly droped. Its all about scaring ppl. to get quotes/votes.

exactly.

	16-05-2002 20:23									#24
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now if that was not a sound piece of information, Marcus...

	16-05-2002 20:31									#25
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Homicides, per 100,000 people

USA: 9
EU: 1.2

what's the reason for that difference?

	16-05-2002 20:31									#26
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It's not an either or proposition. More guns lead to more crime, and more crime leads to more guns. The availablity of guns, however, means that crime is more likely to escalate to lethal levels. It also means that domestic squabbles are more likely to escalate to murder. It also leads to acciental shootings and easier suicides.

However, we aren't getting rid of our guns, so just shut up about it.

	16-05-2002 20:32									#27
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quote: More guns lead to more crime, and more crime leads to more guns

Spiral of Verelendung so to speak.

quote: we aren't getting rid of our guns

why not? as you point out, guns aren't exactly healthy in a society.

	16-05-2002 20:58									#28
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I kinda think that if one wants to murder someone, he could do it with a knife. You know, those huge chef ones. Or even a cleaver.

	16-05-2002 21:03									#29
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like the Butcher's cleaver in Diablo?

	16-05-2002 21:13									#30
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quote: Originally posted by Dalgetti I kinda think that if one wants to murder someone, he could do it with a knife.

It's true, but having a knife in the house isn't as dangerous as having a gun in the house. It's also a lot easier to escape someone with a knife than someone with a gun. For some reason, it's easier to grab a gun in the heat of an argument than it is to grab a knife.

St Marcus, we aren't getting rid of our guns because it' a deeply held belief that we have a right to have guns in the US. Besides, the guns are already out there, and there's no way we could could collect even half, I'll wager. Plus, criminals aren't about to turn in their guns just because it's against the law. Most of the guns in criminal hands are illegally obtained as it is, either via theft or by purchasing them from straw buyers.

Frankly, a lot of our gun wielding criminal problems would be solved if Texas didn't have such lax laws. They are the gun suppliers for the criminal element in the US.