20-05-2002 17:07									#61
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quote: Originally posted by Ethelred Eli your mind is so tightly shuttered it must cause you great pain to be confronted with reality.

Thank you.

quote: So if what you assert is true then the Sarmaritons deserve a state in the Middle East. The Palestinians do. The Maranite Lebanese do. The Islamamic Lebanese do. The Iranian Jews do. The Ethiopian Jews deserve one Ethiopia. The dozens of Amerind Tribes all do in North America AND Canada. The Mayans do in Mexico. The thousands of Amazonian tribes all do.

If they want it, then yes. The Iraqi Jews didnt want a state in Iraq, they wanted it in their homeland and they returned to Israel. The Jews in Britain(those who didnt immigrate to Israel) dont want a Jewish state in Britain.

	20-05-2002 17:10									#62
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I'm sure if you gave them the chance they'd jump at it.

	20-05-2002 17:30									#63
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quote: Originally posted by Eli Thank you.

Your welcome. You earned it.

quote: If they want it, then yes. The Iraqi Jews didnt want a state in Iraq, they wanted it in their homeland and they returned to Israel. The Jews in Britain(those who didnt immigrate to Israel) dont want a Jewish state in Britain.

And who's land will be stolen to make those thousand states? I didn't say Iraqui. I said Iranian. Most of your butchers are Iranian Jews or at least it was that way at one time. Did you ASK if they wanted a Persian Jewish state?

The Jews in Britain are British just as the Jews in America are American. Your have a problem with the concept of tolerance. You definition of anti-Semitism is only one aspect of this problem.

	20-05-2002 21:02									#64
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What exactly are you talking about?

"most of your butchers are iranian jews".

What is that supposed to mean?

Most of the Jews in Britain choose to define themselves as Brittish of Jewish religion.

However, some choose to define themselves as Jews of the Jewish religion.

	20-05-2002 21:45									#65
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quote: Originally posted by Sirotnikov What exactly are you talking about? "most of your butchers are iranian jews". What is that supposed to mean?

Butchers is exactly what I mean. You have heard of them haven't you? I mean even vegetarians are aquainted with the profession.

In Europe and the US when animals are butchered for kosher consumption there is a lot of what would be waste if it wasn't sold to the gentiles. There is a shortage of gentiles in Israel and in Iran. The Jewish-Iranian butchers had to learn how to butcher animals a little more carefully to use more of the meat and still fit kosher rules. When they left Iran they mostly went to Israel to do the same there where they could make a better profit than the European trained Jewish butchers could.

At least that is what my boss at the furniture store I worked in told me. He fought in the first Arab-Israeli War before he came to the US. He had some Jewish friends from Iran that came to the US instead of Israel.

Of course my boss was not exactly the best source in the world for the truth. He was a salesman after all. I just moved the stuff, I didn't sell it.

quote: Most of the Jews in Britain choose to define themselves as Brittish of Jewish religion. However, some choose to define themselves as Jews of the Jewish religion.

Then they aren't very good at being Brits. I haven't met any natural born American Jews that didn't think of themselves as Americans. Not so sure about the immigrants like my boss was. He did move out of Israel though.

I think you will find you are wrong on your first point. I am not aquainted with British Jews but I am with Jewish-Americans and they are not all of the Jewish religion even though they think of themselves of Jewish-Americans.


Edited for a spelling error that made it hard to understand.

	21-05-2002 01:33									#66
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Ethelred - ok, I still don't really get what you are saying.

If Iranian Jews want their country they are free to try and organize one or something.

But they did nothing of that sort.

And I talked asbout brittain as an example.

Ok, there are 3 categories: Religion, Ethnicity, Nationality.

You can be a Jew in religion - if you follow the orthodox / reform / liberal Jewish movements. A huge part of the world's jews are not religious.

You can be a Jew in ethnicity - if you are really of jewish descent. That is usually true for most of the Jews around the world.

You can be Jewish in nationality. That means you have respect for the heritage and want a nation for the Jewish people.

However, it does not make you an Israeli in nationality. To be an Israeli, you have to live in Israel and to gain acess to Israel via the law of return you have to be of Jewish religion or ethnicity.

	21-05-2002 01:44									#67
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Siro, Eli, Ethelred is right: Opposition to the Jewish state is only anti-Semitism if you oppose it because it is a Jewish state. Opposing the concept of ethnic/national states is not anti-Semitism.

	21-05-2002 01:48									#68
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Here is the 'typical' anti-Semitic point of view:

"First some introductions;

1) What is "The people of Israel" ?

The people of Israel have existed for thousands of years.

It has its own particular, essential, nature.

The Torah is the source of its essential nature.

Without Torah and faith there is no people of Israel.

Whoever denies the Torah and the Faith is no longer part of the people of Israel.

The purpose of the People of Israel in this world is Divine service.

Their salvation is occupation in Divine Service.

2) What is Zionism?

Zionism is a relatively new thing.

It has only existed for a century.

Zionism redefines the true essential nature of the people of Israel, and substitutes for it a completely contradictory and opposite character - a materialistic worldly nation.

Their misfortune is lack of what other nations have. i.e. a state and army.

Their salvation is possession of a state and army etc.

This is clearly spelled out in the circles of Zionist though, and among the leaders of the Zionist state, that through changing the nature and character of the people of Israel and by changing their way of thinking they can set before the People of Israel "their salvation" -- a state and an army.

The People of Israel oppose the so-called "State of Israel" for four reasons:

FIRST -- Because this is diametrically opposed and completely contradictory to the true essence and foundation of the people of Israel, as is explained above. Because the only time that the people of Israel were permitted to have a state was two thousand years ago when the glory of the creator was upon us. And likewise in the future when the glory of the creator will once more be revealed, and the whole world will serve Him. Then He Himself (without any human effort or force of arms) will grant us a kingdom founded on divine Service. However, a worldly state, like those possessed by other peoples, is contradictory to the true essence of the People of Israel. Whoever calls this the salvation of Israel shows that he denies the essence of the People of Israel, and substitutes another nature, a worldly materialistic nature, and therefore sets before them, a worldly materialistic "salvation." And the means of achieving this "salvation" is also worldly and materialistic i.e. to organize a land and army. However, the true salvation of the People of Israel is to draw close to the Creator And this is not done by organization and force of arms. Rather it is done by occupation to Torah and good deeds.

SECOND -- Because of all of this and other reason's the Torah forbids us to end the exile and establish a state and army until the Holy One, blessed He, in His Glory and Essence redeem us. This is forbidden even if the state is conducted according to the law of the Torah. Because arising from the exile itself is forbidden, and we are required to remain under the rule of the nations of the world, as is explained in the book VAYOEL MOSHE. And transgress this injunction, He will bring upon us (may we be spared) terrible punishment.

THIRD Aside from arising from exile, all the deeds of the Zionists are diametrically opposed to the Faith and the Torah. Because the foundation of the Faith and Torah of Israel, is that the Torah was revealed from heaven, and there is reward for those who obey it and punishment for those who transgress it. The entire People of Israel is required to obey the Torah, and whoever doesn't want to, ceases to be part of the congregation of Israel.

FOURTH -- Aside from the fact that they themselves do not obey the Torah they do everything they can to prevent anyone they get under their power from fulfilling the commands of the Torah, the claims to freedom of religion are lies. They fight with all of their strength to destroy the Faith of Israel.

The Zionists claim that they are the saviors of Israel, but this is refuted by twelve things:

FIRST -- If one contemplates the two thousand years of our exile, take any hundred years even the hardest, one will not find as much suffering, bloodshed, and catastrophes for the People of Israel s in the period of the Zionists. And it is known that most of the suffering of this century was caused by the Zionists, as our Rabbis warned us would be the case.
SECOND -- It is openly stated in books written by the founders of Zionism that the means by which they panned to establish a state was by instigating anti-Semitism, and undermining the security of the Jews in all the lands of the world, until they would be forced to flee to their state. And thus they did - They intentionally infuriated the German people and fanned the flames of Nazi hatred, and they helped the Nazis, with trickery and deceit, to take whole Jewish communities off to the concentration camps, and the Zionists themselves admit this. (See the books Perfidy, Min Ha Meitsor, etc.). The Zionists continue to practice this strategy today ,they incite anti-Semitism and then they present themselves as the "saviors". Here are two replies given y Leaders of the Zionists during World War II, when they were asked for money to help ransom Jews from the Nazis. Greenbaum said "One cow in Palestine is worth more than all the Jews in Poland." (G-d forbid).
Weitzman said, The most important part of the Jewish people is already in the land (of Israel) and those who are left, are unimportant (May we be spared).
THIRD -- We see that most of world Jewry, Lives in security and under good physical conditions, and have no desire to go live in the Zionist state. Whereas many people have left the Zionist state to live under better conditions in other lands.
FOURTH -- The Zionists make a great deal of propaganda to induce people to immigrate to their state. If their state is so beneficial why do they have to make so much propaganda.
FIFTH -- Because nobody wants the Zionists to "save" them. The only way they can get immigrants is by promising poor people material benefits. And even then very few people respond.
SIXTH -- The Zionists State is always threatened by the dangers of war. Whereas the rest of world Jewry lives in peace and security, (Except in a few places where the Zionists have undermined their security and fanned the flames of hatred)
SEVENTH -- The Zionists state could not continue to exist without economic support from Jews living outside of the Zionist state.
EIGHTH -- The Zionist state is on the verge of economic collapse, and their money is nearly worthless.
NINTH -- The Zionists state persecute all Jews who are loyal to their faith.
TENTH -- They start wars that endanger the Jewish People, for the sake of their own political interests.
ELEVENTH - According to the Torah the path of safety is following ways of peace not starting fights with other nations, as the Zionists do.
TWELFTH -- Even if the Zionists could and would provide physical security it would be at the expense of our Faith and Our Torah. And the true People of Israel prefer death rather than life at such a cost.
It is therefore clear that Zionism is not the savior of the people of Israel. Rather it is their greatest misfortune.

Even though there are some observant Jews and rabbis, who approve of the Zionists, this is not the opinion of the Torah.

The Zionists have enough control over the American news media to make sure that only their side of the story is heard.

They make it look like all Jewry and their rabbis are Zionists, but this is false propaganda.

The most important Rabbis and the majority of religious Jewry are opposed to Zionism, but their voice is not heard because of Zionist control of American news media.

The Zionist terrorize everyone who speaks out against them.

That part of the Jewish masses which is fooled by Zionist propaganda puts pressure on their Rabbis not to speak out.

Between the terror and the pressure of the masses most of the Rabbis are prevented from speaking out.

We bring three testimonies of the true opinion of the Torah.
1) In the past two thousand years of the dangers and sufferings of exile not once did any of the Sages of Israel suggest that we make a state to protect ourselves. And in every generation we had thousands of Sages well versed in the Torah.
2) We have thousands of legal work of Torah law that have been handed down to us by the Sages of all generations. Not once do we see a word suggesting the establishment of a state. What we do find is warnings against it.
3) The founders of Zionism were all atheists who denied the Torah. And all the Torah Sages of that time opposed them and opposed Zionism, saying that Zionism would lead only to destruction.

However the true People of Israel will never change their nature or give up their faith because of the strength the Creator gives them.


Zionism is a foreign growth in the body of the Jewish People. The end will be that it will rid itself of this foreign growth and remain pure.

Zionism has overcome the Jewish people by force. With fraud and terror, but none of this will help them because the truth will always remain with the help of the Creator.

Zionism will not replace the Jewish People. The Jewish People will remain strong in their faith and the Zionist state will cease to exist.

It is therefore, our demand that the State that calls itself ISRAEL, should cease to exist. Since this won't be done, we demand that they cease to call themselves "Israel", because their entire being is in complete opposition to the true People of Israel. The true People of Israel deny them permission to call themselves by that name. The Zionist leaders have no right to set themselves up as the representatives and spokesmen of the true People of ISRAEL.

Since we know they will not fulfill this demand either we feel that at least we cry out the truth. And the truth will always remain the truth, by no means or force can the truth be changed. Even if all the world would say that one and one are three, the truth will remain that one and one is two.

Let the truth be declared. The use of the Name "ISRAEL" by that state is a complete falsification. The People of Israel have nothing to do with that state. Zionism and its state have no share and no part in the true ISRAEL."
(source: www.netureikarta.org)

	21-05-2002 02:05									#69
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S. Kroeze - Neturei Karta are an insignificant minority.

Their point of view is not in any way objective but is biased, since they expect the messiah to come to Earth and think that Israel postpones his coming.

With the same success I could quote to you some christian pilgrims and say that they represent the "real" "objective" view that goyim should have.

There are about 5 Million Jews in Israel. That's more than there are Neturei Karta.

Furthermore most Jews in the rest of the world support Zionism, even though they don't all plan to immigrate to Israel.


I think it's quite wrong to use the words of a small insignifact group as a symbol of a people. A lot of wrong doing eminates from that.

	21-05-2002 02:07									#70
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quote: Siro, Eli, Ethelred is right: Opposition to the Jewish state is only anti-Semitism if you oppose it because it is a Jewish state. Opposing the concept of ethnic/national states is not anti-Semitism.

Why thank you Natan.

Siro:

	21-05-2002 02:11									#71
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Now that I read the post in detail, I can tell you it's filled with idiotic nonsense.

	21-05-2002 02:12									#72
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quote: Siro, Eli, Ethelred is right: Opposition to the Jewish state is only anti-Semitism if you oppose it because it is a Jewish state. Opposing the concept of ethnic/national states is not anti-Semitism.

I agree.
But some tend to have no problems with ethnic states, unless it's Israel.

	21-05-2002 02:17									#73
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From their site:

quote: The group was founded in Jerusalem, Palestine in 1938, splitting off from Agudas Yisroel. Agudas Yisroel was established 87 years ago for the purpose of fighting Zionism. Gradually lured by money and honor they sold out to the "Golden-Calf" (see Exodus, XXXII) of Zionism. Those who wanted to maintain their faith and continue the struggle against Zionism, dissociated themselves from Agudas Yisroel and associated parties.

Agudas Yisroel (or Agudat Israel in hebrew [as opposed to yiddish]) is a very religious party in Israel, which is also anti-zionist but with no real aspirations to dismantle Israel.

Neturei Karta are an even smaller group

quote: Neturei Karta is not - as is often alleged - a small sect or an extremist group of "ultra-orthodox" Jews. The Neturei Karta have added nothing to nor have they taken anything away from the written and oral law of the Torah as it is expressed in the Halacha and the Shulchan Aruch.

ROFL
1. They are indeed very small
2. They are indeed ultra orthodox. They say that they haven't taken anything away nor added a thing. Well : this is exactly what Orthodox means.

quote: Neturei Karta oppose the so-called "State of Israel" not because it operates secularly, but because the entire concept of a sovereign Jewish state is contrary to Jewish Law.

As if a Jewish state (two infact) never existed in BC.

Imran -> I don't get what's your point. I agree with Natan and in no way does it concede to your claims that Judaism is merely a religion.

Eli stated the exact same thing as natan merely in other words.

	21-05-2002 02:20									#74
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"Whoever denies the Torah and the Faith is no longer part of the people of Israel."

I define a Jew by his religion, the observing of halakhah.
Do you observe halakhah?

Most Israelis are NO Jews!

Perhaps at this very moment most Orthodox Jews support Zionism. Yet a century ago ALL Orthodox Jews opposed Zionism.
And in the year 2100 it is highly probable that 'true Jews' will again outnumber Israelis.

In the end only the truly Orthodox will preserve Judaism.
The apostates will vanish among the gentiles and will be forgotten....

Last edited by S. Kroeze on 21-05-2002 at 02:29

	21-05-2002 02:20									#75
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quote: Imran -> I don't get what's your point. I agree with Natan and in no way does it concede to your claims that Judaism is merely a religion.

It proves that point that being anti-Israel is not anti-Semitism .

	21-05-2002 02:32									#76
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S. Kroeze, there is absolutely no reason to believe that anti-Zionist Orthodox jews will be a majority of world Jewry when they're a tiny and isolated minority within Orthodox Jewry.

quote: I define a Jew by his religion, the observing of halakhah. Do you observe halakhah? Most Israelis are NO Jews!

No Orthodox Jew uses this definition. None, zip, nada. You're misinterperting them here bigtime. It's because even a Jewish apostate is a Jew that we have this whole thing about maternal descent.

	21-05-2002 02:34									#77
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Imran : nice one. It proves that in a certain case , these don't coexist. This case, however has nothing to do with your stance. .

you're giving way too much weight to Natan's opinion anyway.

	21-05-2002 02:36									#78
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what a boring ME thread is this.

	21-05-2002 02:47									#79
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Dear Natan,

Allow me to remind you of this previous post:

quote:
The acceptance of the yoke of halakhah is seen by many as the distinctive essence of Judaism. According to the Orthodox, halakhah is God-given and must be obeyed. The Progressive movements, while reverencing the halakhah, do not accept its binding obligation in every aspect of life. In so doing, Progressive Jews are perceived by their Orthodox co-religionists as rejecting the point and purpose of the tradition. Hence Reform rabbis are not accepted, and Reform proselytes are not believed to be Jews. Thus it is their unconditional adherence to halakhah, that Orthodox Jews define themselves and their commitment."

"Orthodox Judaism Traditional Judaism. The term 'Orthodoxy' was first applied in Judaism in 1795 as a distinction between those who accepted the written and oral law as divinely inspired and those who identified with the Reform movement. The Orthodox believe that they are the sole practitioners of the Jewish religious tradition and regard non-Orthodox rabbis as laypeople and non-Orthodox proselytes as gentiles. Orthodoxy involves submission to the demands of the halakhah as enshrined in the written and oral law and in the subsequent codes and responsa.

"Right, and IMHO, (some will disagree) Orthodox Judaism is the Judaism which was practiced for some 1500-2000 years before the other sects showed up, and is therefore the real deal."

	21-05-2002 03:43									#80
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quote: Originally posted by S. Kroeze "Whoever denies the Torah and the Faith is no longer part of the people of Israel." I define a Jew by his religion, the observing of halakhah. Do you observe halakhah? Most Israelis are NO Jews!

Guess what?

Neither you, nor Neturei Karta, have any monopoly over Judaism. You do not have an authority to decide who is a Jew and who isn't


Other than that, being a jew is very much about ethnicity, as genetics prove that Jews are an ethnicity. As I told Imran in another thread, there's gonna be an article published about one research which proves it in American Journal of Human Genetics.

quote: Perhaps at this very moment most Orthodox Jews support Zionism. Yet a century ago ALL Orthodox Jews opposed Zionism. And in the year 2100 it is highly probable that 'true Jews' will again outnumber Israelis.

You're talking nonsense.

Israeli Jews are a small part of world Jewry, out of which, less than 15% are Orthodox.

Your claims are based on misconceptions, and are mostly there because they are comfortable for you to believe in.

quote: In the end only the truly Orthodox will preserve Judaism. The apostates will vanish among the gentiles and will be forgotten....

You know you sound like some crazy ultra-religious git?

	21-05-2002 03:47									#81
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quote: Other than that, being a jew is very much about ethnicity, as genetics prove that Jews are an ethnicity. As I told Imran in another thread, there's gonna be an article published about one research which proves it in American Journal of Human Genetics.

*cough* Bullshit *cough*

Hey look, if I convert to Judaism tomorrow, I can be part of another ethnicity . Maybe the next day I'll declare myself to be of Mexican ethnicity!

	21-05-2002 03:50									#82
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quote: "Right, and IMHO, (some will disagree) Orthodox Judaism is the Judaism which was practiced for some 1500-2000 years before the other sects showed up, and is therefore the real deal."

This is utter nonsense.

Orthodox Judaism sprung about in the 1700s in eastern europe, as a reaction to the springing reformation and liberalization movements in western europe.

The Orthosox Judaism, insists on keeping things the way they were in the 1700, claiming like the catholic church, that the scriptures are sacred and shouldn't be touched.

This is an anti-thesis to all the great scholars which rose to

The Talmud itself says that after the Bible has left God's hands (so to speak) it is the people's to interpert and to have opinions about.

And the Orthodox are saying that no opinions are allowed, and only their conservative view is legitimate.

Again, don't talk about things that you have no idea about.

quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui It proves that point that being anti-Israel is not anti-Semitism .

No it doesn't.

It says that being anti-national isn't anti-semitism, a notion with which we all agreed.

It is when you isolate Jews especially, that you become anti-semitic.

	21-05-2002 03:52									#83
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quote: It says that being anti-national isn't anti-semitism, a notion with which we all agreed

You apparently didn't... you had to be rebuked by Natan .

	21-05-2002 03:55									#84
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Dear, Imran, once again proving yourself to be an idiot.

As I've said - there are several ways in which one could be a Jew.

Ethnically - Religiously - Nationally.

There are ethnical and religious jews with no national Jewish aspirations.

Sadly, your thought has not evolved enough to accomodate all of these confusing things, therefore you are aruging with me.

You are of pakistani ethnicity, deist faith and american nationality.

I am of jewish-european ethnicity, liberal jewish faith, israeli-jewish nationality.

Judaism is a name of an ethnicity, and a religion and a nationality.

Granted, between the fall of the last Jewish Kingdom and until the birth of Zionism, Jewish nationality was pretty much non-existant.

However, it was revived or reborn.

Denying that is like denying the Palestinian nationalism.

	21-05-2002 03:57									#85
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui quote: It says that being anti-national isn't anti-semitism, a notion with which we all agreed You apparently didn't... you had to be rebuked by Natan .

I have no idea why he said that to me and Eli. I thought so all along - I infact said that Jaako is not an antisemite because he is generally against the idea of nations.

Eli also said it in his proposed definition of when anti-zionism equals anti-semitism.

You are arguing against what you think we are saying.

	21-05-2002 04:01									#86
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quote: Judaism is a name of an ethnicity, and a religion and a nationality.

*BZZZZT* Wrong!

Judaism is the name of a religion. Hebrew is a name of an ethnicity and nationality. Judaism DOES NOT EQUAL Hebrew. People that turn to Judaism do NOT change their ethnicity!

	21-05-2002 04:04									#87
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Imran - there is no such thing "hebrew".

It's jew. jew jew jew. jew jew jew jew jew. (your worse nightmare is hearing this playing in your head, huh? )

in any case - most of those who belive in judaism are also of jewish ethnicity (what you call hebrew) and a great deal of them are of jewish nationality and are zionists.

	21-05-2002 04:08									#88
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Judaism is the religion of the Hebraic peoples. If you convert you DO NOT change ethnicity, it is the stupidest thing I've ever heard! If that is true, then I'm going to declare myself having Cuban ethnicity tomorrow, because I feel like it .

For you to be even close to correct you have to say that the Jewish people is something different than people that are Jews.

	21-05-2002 04:13									#89
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui I'm going to declare myself having Cuban ethnicity tomorrow, because I feel like it .

What's to stop you? You'd even collect some AA points, no?

	21-05-2002 04:14									#90
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Imran - no one said that by converting you change your ethnicity.

However due to juadism's closed society (until recently) and due to jewish persecution, there were very little conversions to judaism.

there still are very little such conversions.

that is why most jews by religion are also jews (hebrews :rolleyes by ethnicity.