22-05-2002 02:48									#121
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The word "Jew" came from "Yehuda", which is a name for an Israelite tribe - an ethnic group.

	22-05-2002 03:11									#122
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quote: Originally posted by Natan S. Kroeze: Yes, absolutely and 100%. And if every one of your ancestors was a Jew except for your mother's mother's mothers' etc. who was not Jewish, then you are not Jewish.

Next question/task:
Make a realistic valuation of the number of 'Jews' on this planet, using this definition!

By the way, how do you know whether one of Sirotnikov's female ancestors in maternal line ever was a halakhah observing woman?

A remark for Sirotnikov:
I am an agnost and -unlike you- I have a religious nature. When I would be converted to some faith, I would try to observe its directions and not ridicule those who do.
You want proof? Read your own posts!

	22-05-2002 03:27									#123
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S. Kroeze - basically I'm agnostic as well, with a rather spiritual nature.

However, you do not know enough about judaism the religion, jewishness the nationality and jewishness (hebrew) as an ethnicity to judge.

There are many people in the world who observe the Jewish faith. As you may know (or not) even in the BC era there were several movements within Judaism which interpreted the Torah in different ways. That is very natural. In the 17 centuries even more different ways arose.

You however, read one site by neturei karta, who in their chutzpa claim to have the only true authority on judaism (as most different orthodox movements do) and think that you know judaism.

Well you don't.

While I accept the right of the orthodox to believe what they want, just like anyone else, and I still regard them as jews, I am not obliged in any way to accept their interpertation of judaism.

Infact, I reject it, for reasons part of which I mentioned in the previous post.

The part I ridiculed about orthodox judaism being the one and ony true judaism and existing for 1700 years deserves to be ridiculed. not only is it completely self-centered and not objective, it is also false, as the orthodox judaism as we know it only exists for 300 years or so.

	22-05-2002 03:31									#124
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btw, sorry I behaved like i did towards you. i was mad at you for being decisive in things which i beleived you know little about.

i appologize.

	22-05-2002 04:10									#125
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quote: Originally posted by Sirotnikov S. Kroeze - basically I'm agnostic as well, with a rather spiritual nature. However, you do not know enough about judaism the religion, jewishness the nationality and jewishness (hebrew) as an ethnicity to judge. There are many people in the world who observe the Jewish faith. As you may know (or not) even in the BC era there were several movements within Judaism which interpreted the Torah in different ways. That is very natural. In the 17 centuries even more different ways arose. You however, read one site by neturei karta, who in their chutzpa claim to have the only true authority on judaism (as most different orthodox movements do) and think that you know judaism. Well you don't. While I accept the right of the orthodox to believe what they want, just like anyone else, and I still regard them as jews(!), I am not obliged in any way to accept their interpertation of judaism. Infact, I reject it, for reasons part of which I mentioned in the previous post.

Dear Sirotnikov,

I do not claim to be an authority on Judaism. Yet you might have noticed that I am one of the few posters on Apolyton who often gives verbatim citations and also source references.
I do not remember you ever doing so.

Nor am I too lazy to go to the library and search for specialist literature. The parts I quoted verbatim came from 'The Oxford Dictionary of World Religions', ed J.Bowker,1997.

I wouldn't draw conclusions in advance about what I have read or know, and have not read and don't know. It raises the suspicion that you are afraid to lose a debate on arguments.
Nor does your habit of repeating your position that I do not know anything at all about Judaism -four times in one short post- strengthen your persuasiveness. Instead it raises the suspicion that you have run out of true arguments.

I still think the quotation from www.netureikarta.org is most appropriate in this thread. Most experts will admit they ARE Jews, yet they are vehemently anti-Zionist -you may remember that is what this thread is about. And they are small, but not that small: recently they organised a demonstration in Brooklyn attended by 20,000 Orthodox Jews.

Just one question: do you consider the 'Torah' to be the word of the Creator/Supreme Being or is it just a book of fairy-tales?

I will gladly accept your apologies!

Sincerely,

S.Kroeze, probably an anti-Semite

PS: By the way, I have some reason to believe that it were not the habits of the Orthodox that changed in Europe after ~1700. I have even heard that the designation 'Orthodox' was invented by their adversaries. I will do more reading before making a statement about it.

	22-05-2002 04:18									#126
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quote: Originally posted by S. Kroeze Next question/task: Make a realistic valuation of the number of 'Jews' on this planet, using this definition!

Hard to say for sure, although one could probably get a fairly decent rough estimate based on population growth in the relevant regions if you could agree on how many Jews there were at Sinai or at some other agreed upon starting point. How this is relevant, I don't know.

quote: By the way, how do you know whether one of Sirotnikov's female ancestors in maternal line ever was a halakhah observing woman?

I can't prove it, but my guess is that someone in his family (a parent, a grandparent) can remember a religious matriarch, and if not that, then it's quite possible that synagogue records could prove it. Either way, people have traditionally been given the benefit of the doubt on this question.

	22-05-2002 04:34									#127
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quote: Originally posted by Natan Hard to say for sure, although one could probably get a fairly decent rough estimate based on population growth in the relevant regions if you could agree on how many Jews there were at Sinai or at some other agreed upon starting point. How this is relevant, I don't know.

Of course this is of the utmost importance! I am surprised you cast doubt on it.
For those -like me- who define a Jew by the observing of halakhah it is irrelevant, but for those who do not, yet still lay claim to Palestine, it is of vital importance!

Please try!

About Sirotnikov: Remember, it should be his mother, or the mother of his mother, or the mother of the mother of his mother, or etc. ...The mother of his father will not do!

	22-05-2002 04:43									#128
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quote: Originally posted by S. Kroeze I do not claim to be an authority on Judaism. Yet you might have noticed that I am one of the few posters on Apolyton who often gives verbatim citations and also source references. I do not remember you ever doing so.

I would, but I don't really remember all the things I read.

Mainly I read alot of things in school and out teachers tend to keep us updated on the current scientific research of the torah.

Also, I should note in advance I rely mostly on non-religious research.

I don't feel that an ultra religious person can reach an impartial view.

quote: Nor am I too lazy to go to the library and search for specialist literature. The parts I quoted verbatim came from 'The Oxford Dictionary of World Religions', ed J.Bowker,1997.

I read my share of books from Israeli scholars about the bible. I was also taught about the bible's history and the history of the halacha and such in school for several years.

quote: I wouldn't draw conclusions in advance about what I have read or know, and have not read and don't know. It raises the suspicion that you are afraid to lose a debate on arguments.

Not at all.

Simply, you seem to grasp judaism in a fashion limited to it's ultra-orthodox movement, and only in it's religious side.

This, in light of what I know, seems very inappropriate and I would imagine that to limit oneself to such a view, one would have to be either actually religious and self convinced, or not knowledgeable.

quote: Nor does your habit of repeating your position that I do not know anything at all about Judaism -four times in one short post- strengthen your persuasiveness. Instead it raises the suspicion that you have run out of true arguments.

I was more angry than anything else.

quote: I still think the quotation from www.netureikarta.org is most appropriate in this thread. Most experts will admit they ARE Jews, yet they are vehemently anti-Zionist -you may remember that is what this thread is about. And they are small, but not that small: recently they organised a demonstration in Brooklyn attended by 20,000 Orthodox Jews.

Well, Israel has at least 3,000,000 Jews who would disagree.

In any case, as I said, they are still a minority among jews. They are even a minority among ultra-orthodox jews.

I don't think it's wise to base your view of the jewish faith only on them, as you have done quite often, especially in middle east threads.

quote: Just one question: do you consider the 'Torah' to be the word of the Creator/Supreme Being or is it just a book of fairy-tales?

Neither.

I consider it the work of many supreme beings- humans, who were divinely inspired, but still - human.

quote: I will gladly accept your apologies!

If you will look at the post above, I'm sure you'll notice I beat you to it

I hope you accept.

quote: Sincerely, S.Kroeze, probably an anti-Semite

oh, don't get all semantic and cry baby

i'm not as fast with the anti-semite label.

quote: PS: By the way, I have some reason to believe that it were not the habits of the Orthodox that changed in Europe after ~1700. I have even heard that the designation 'Orthodox' was invented by their adversaries. I will do more reading before making a statement about it.

Well, look, mainly - it was a counter reformist movement.

True, it's closer to the mainstream religious - conservative judaism than the other movements, but still, I wouldn't think it be fair to call jews in the midieval times "orthodox".

Even then, several movements already existed.

Several movements existed even in BC.

Think about Judea and Israel. They had different dates for holidays and slightly different rules. But both were Jews.

	22-05-2002 04:50									#129
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quote: Of course this is of the utmost importance! I am surprised you cast doubt on it. For those -like me- who define a Jew by the observing of halakhah it is irrelevant

Tell me, what gives you the right to make up a definition of Jew different that used by almost all Jews, and especially all religious ones? As I already said, you're definition of a Jew is someone who believes in the wrong definition of Jewish identity.

quote: but for those who do not, yet still lay claim to Palestine, it is of vital importance!

Why? There are about 13 million known Jews in the world, and probably tens of millions more unknown ones, but they're hardly likely to have their ancestry revealed in that detail, nor are they likely to care if it is, so what's the issue?

quote: About Sirotnikov: Remember, it should be his mother, or the mother of his mother, or the mother of the mother of his mother, or etc. ...The mother of his father will not do!

Yes, thank you for repeating what I already told you.

	22-05-2002 04:59									#130
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quote: Originally posted by Ned The Native Americans live on reservations and are supported by the United States. Other than that, they have their own self government. Ned

It seems to be a mix of local tribal control and federal and even state. Remember the fight between California and the tribes over gambling? Yet they also sell cigarettes without federal or state taxes. I think the legal situation for reservations is complex. Its definitly not sovereign tribal territory or the Governor of California wouldn't have any say.

	24-05-2002 01:14									#131
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quote: Originally posted by Natan Tell me, what gives you the right to make up a definition of Jew different that used by almost all Jews, and especially all religious ones? As I already said, you're definition of a Jew is someone who believes in the wrong definition of Jewish identity. Why? There are about 13 million known Jews in the world, and probably tens of millions more unknown ones, but they're hardly likely to have their ancestry revealed in that detail, nor are they likely to care if it is, so what's the issue?

I prefer a discussion where words do actually mean something.
When following halakhah on this issue, there are millions of Jews on this planet -probably most of them living in the Middle East- who do not know they are Jews (nor wish to be considered so).

Assuming every year 400 Jewish women -of their own free will or under constraint- did adopt life as a gentile and married gentile husbands (a very cautious assumption), I arrived at a population size of Jews living today as gentiles of 30 million! 300 million is probably nearer to the truth!

As a result the notion 'Jew' becomes the equivalent of 'man'.
Everyone has at least 120 female ancestors in the female line living after 1000BC; one Jewish ancestor will do! Most Muslims in the Middle East would be 'Jews'.

	24-05-2002 02:59									#132
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quote: Here's what I don't get - Israel is a democracy. It has civil rights and religious freedom; no one is stoned for violations of religious, the press is more or less free, women have equal rights, etc. Yet somehow people seem to fixate on Israel as somehow a roadblock to tolerance and democracy when it's neighbors and regional enemies are so clearly the greater threat.

Adding onto what Imran wrote with respect to Isreal being a relatively free society, I believe the fact that people are actually defending Israel, while no one but the lunatic fringe is defending the practices of the Arab states, has something to do with it.

quote: Why is it that economic sanctions on Israel are good, but sanctions on Iraq and Syria are bad?

They're both bad. Economic sanctions, in most cases hurt only the people, while strengthening their states.

	24-05-2002 03:37									#133
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quote: Originally posted by Ramo Economic sanctions, in most cases hurt only the people, while strengthening their states.

Maybe, but the embargo FDR laid on Japan would have destroyed it had they not attacked.

I have no doubt that if the US and Europe place an embargo on Israel, it will collapse.

	24-05-2002 03:59									#134
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quote: Maybe, but embargo FDR laid on Japan would have destroyed it had they not attacked.

Their imperial ambitions may have been severely limited, but I would not say that Japan would have fallen (provided the US never enters the war). In fact, I'd wager that the embargo increased the control Japan had over its people.

quote: I have no doubt that if the US and Europe place an embargo on Israel, it will collapse.

I don't see why, short of foreign invasion. AFAIK, Israel has many of the resources it needs, and it could find other trading partners.

An embargo would only give the Israeli gov't license to use more extreme "solutions" with respect to the Palestinians, and of course cause the Isreali people to suffer.

	24-05-2002 04:03									#135
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Ramo, I do agree with you on Iraq. Sanctions have had no effect.

	24-05-2002 05:24									#136
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Without sanctions Iraq would clearly would have rearmed. With more modern weaponry at that. Sanctions have definetly effected Hussein's ambitions. Just because he is still there is no indication the the sanctions haven't helped the others living in the region. The Iraquis had no problems with trying to steal from Iran and Kuwait so now they can live with the results or get rid of Hussein.

	24-05-2002 06:41									#137
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With regards to sanctions on Iraq, how far do they actually extend? Do they only apply to military stuff, or to 'dual-use' stuff, or to everything?

	24-05-2002 07:24									#138
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quote: Do they only apply to military stuff, or to 'dual-use' stuff, or to everything?

I think its nearly everything. They aren't allowed to sell oil except in measured amounts. They are only supposed to spend that money on food and medical. They seem to smuggle a lot instead.

The key item is that Iraqs main item of trade is oil. They did much of their trade via a pipeline to Europe that runs through Turkey and another through Jordan. Ships have to go out the Gulf and that is patrolled. Its the lack of an ability to sell that is really hampering the Iraquis.

	24-05-2002 08:21									#139
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The ONLY question that needs to be answered is whether the sanctions are or will be effective in preventing Sadaam from acquiring WoMD.

	24-05-2002 08:50									#140
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Well a lack of money is certainly going to make it hard to buy stuff. It will hamper building home grown stuff as well. I doubt that Hussein has a easy time getting bright people to work for his weapons industry. He is too dangerous to the people around him.

I don't think that he can be stopped from manufacturing chemical weapons. Its the delivery systems that would be difficult without money.