19-05-2002 01:08									#1
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I know a lot of people think anti-zionism is anti-semitism, and I recal one poster here having a MLK quote on that matter.

My question is, if anti-zionism is anti-semitism how can there be anti-zionist jews? There are quite a lot of those, and they certainly aren't anti-semites (being jews themselves).

	19-05-2002 01:11									#2
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Yes. Saying that the Jews, unlike any other ehtnic group, do not have the right to have a state is anti-semitism. Opposing to Israel's moves on the other hand, is not.

	19-05-2002 01:13									#3
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Woohoo! According to Eli, I'm an anti-Semite.

Does that also mean I'm an anti-Kurdite?

	19-05-2002 01:16									#4
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I don't think that any ethnic group is entitled to a state of their own.

	19-05-2002 01:17									#5
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quote: Originally posted by Osweld I don't think that any ethnic group is entitled to a state of their own.

Weirdos like you are an exception.

	19-05-2002 01:21									#6
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I agree with Oswald.

I guess I'm an anti-Tibetan too .

	19-05-2002 01:22									#7
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quote: Yes. Saying that the Jews, unlike any other ehtnic group, do not have the right to have a state is anti-semitism.

So how can there be jews that are anti-zionists? That's the main question I'm asking.

	19-05-2002 02:02									#8
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Because these are self-hating jews that are ashamed of their jewish heritage and therefore traitors to Israel and the jewish people. IIRC this was Elis or Siros (Iīm not sure which one) explanation in one of the earlier ME-threads.

	19-05-2002 02:12									#9
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that's a load of bull. if they hate being a jew so much, why do they tell everyone that they are jews? would be a thing one could hide very easily, if one wanted to. apparantly they don't, so they can't be that ashamed of it.

	19-05-2002 02:13									#10
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quote: According to Eli, I'm an anti-Semite.

ain't we all?

	19-05-2002 02:20									#11
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quote: Originally posted by Saint Marcus ain't we all?

I know I am.

explodes a jew

	19-05-2002 02:24									#12
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This all is really complicated. The right of self determination is really the antithesis of Empire. And yet we see in the U.S. a form of government composed of many nationalities where the Constitution and Laws protect the civil and religious rights of each.

When the civil liberties and religious rights of a people who identify themselfs as a separate nation are not guaranteed by a Constitution such as we find in the United States, that people have a right to establish their own state to protect their rights.

The U.S. is unique in the world. There is no other government that has our form of government in its full expression. But everyone cannot live here. This means that outside the United States, every "people" should have a right to their own nation.

Those who oppose this concept seem should do so on general prinicples that have universal applicability. Otherwise, selective opposition implies selective animus.

	19-05-2002 02:30									#13
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I'm confused...

care to say that again Ned? I think I'm missing something.

	19-05-2002 02:36									#14
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quote: Originally posted by Saint Marcus that's a load of bull. if they hate being a jew so much, why do they tell everyone that they are jews? would be a thing one could hide very easily, if one wanted to. apparantly they don't, so they can't be that ashamed of it.

Yeah, I think so to. Thatīs the flaw in Siro et als argumentation I guess...

But really. Zionism is a ideology just like fascism or communism, thus jews can be anti-zionist. Itīs just like jews being anti-fascist or anti-communist.

	19-05-2002 02:39									#15
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Jews already have a state. It is called the state of Israel. The question is moot. The only question that remains is, do some people want to expell the Jews now from their homeland?

	19-05-2002 02:41									#16
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quote: Originally posted by Saint Marcus I'm confused... care to say that again Ned? I think I'm missing something.

Self determination requires (and I am willing to bet others have written on this topic better than below):

1) A people who have a separate identity of self - a separate culture if you wish;

2) They occupy a geography where they are the majority; and

3) They cannot maintain their culture, i.e., their civil, religious or other rights, because they live under a government that does not guarantee those rights, i.e., there a tyranny of the larger majority in a greater geography.

Democracy does not cure this, because democracies, as opposed to constitutional republics like the United States, are simply tryannies of the majority.

Based upon the above, I believe the Jews of Palestine have a right to their own state.

(So do the Kurds for that matter.)

Ned

	19-05-2002 02:54									#17
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quote: Originally posted by Lincoln Jews already have a state. It is called the state of Israel. The question is moot. The only question that remains is, do some people want to expell the Jews now from their homeland?

Noone here wants to send the jews out in a second diasporah (I think ) but we want equal rights for the palestinians. I donīt really care if they disband the state of Israel and creates a larger secularized Palestine for jews and arabs alike or go for the two state solution. We just want the bloodshed to end.

	19-05-2002 02:59									#18
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Every nation has the right to a state. No nation has the right to an exclusive state. Croatia, for example, was a racist state when it defined itself as the state of the Croatian people, and there are these other people who live here too whom we give rights to, blah blah, blah. Israel is a similar state. It needs to give the same rights to all its people, instead of merely the Jewish ones.

	19-05-2002 02:59									#19
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I think 'self'-determination is a complete waste of time. Look what happened in the Balkans.

	19-05-2002 03:01									#20
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quote: Croatia, for example, was a racist state when it defined itself as the state of the Croatian people

Right on!

The whole area was best under Tito... when you didn't have as much ethnic tension and people saying this side is racially better.

	19-05-2002 03:02									#21
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quote: Originally posted by Kamrat X Noone here wants to send the jews out in a second diasporah (I think ) but we want equal rights for the palestinians. I donīt really care if they disband the state of Israel and creates a larger secularized Palestine for jews and arabs alike or go for the two state solution. We just want the bloodshed to end.

I am very sure the vast majority of this Planet, let alone the people of Palestine, want peace and an end to the violence. However there are some, and many here on Apolyton support this, that want Land before they are willing to give Peace.

Land for Peace.

Ned

	19-05-2002 03:04									#22
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quote: However there are some, and many here on Apolyton support this, that want Land before they are willing to give Peace.

Yep

	19-05-2002 03:06									#23
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quote: Noone here wants to send the jews out in a second diasporah (I think ) but we want equal rights for the palestinians. I donīt really care if they disband the state of Israel and creates a larger secularized Palestine for jews and arabs alike or go for the two state solution. We just want the bloodshed to end

Two states sounds good.

However, go read what the Palestinian school books say about the two states solution. Or Jews in general.

quote: Every nation has the right to a state. No nation has the right to an exclusive state. Croatia, for example, was a racist state when it defined itself as the state of the Croatian people, and there are these other people who live here too whom we give rights to, blah blah, blah. Israel is a similar state. It needs to give the same rights to all its people, instead of merely the Jewish ones.

It does give the same rights to all of it's people. But it's still an ethnic state. I see nothing wrong with that. Each nation should have the right to have it's own state. Other people can live there if they want to accept that nationality.

But most of the world is not ready for the political nationality of the USA and Canada.

Immigration policy is a different matter. No immigration policy is really democratic.

	19-05-2002 03:07									#24
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quote: Yep

He meant you Imran

	19-05-2002 03:09									#25
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quote: He meant you Imran

No **** sherlock, and if he thought he was insulting with that remark, then he failed.

	19-05-2002 03:12									#26
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quote: Originally posted by Ned I am very sure the vast majority of this Planet, let alone the people of Palestine, want peace and an end to the violence. However there are some, and many here on Apolyton support this, that want Land before they are willing to give Peace. Land for Peace. Ned

This is the biggest problem IMO. Land for peace or peace for land? Neither side trust the other and therefore the bloodshed continues.

	19-05-2002 03:17									#27
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quote: Originally posted by Sirotnikov However, go read what the Palestinian school books say about the two states solution. Or Jews in general.

Obviously both sides must work on their attitude against the other. Trust must be built between the arabs and jews, and you canīt do that if both sides describes the other as the lowest form of life on the face of the planet.

	19-05-2002 03:42									#28
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quote: Democracy does not cure this, because democracies, as opposed to constitutional republics like the United States, are simply tryannies of the majority.

Now that's the part I don't understand.

You are saying that a multicultural society only exists in the USA? Or are you saying something else entirely?

	19-05-2002 03:59									#29
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quote: Originally posted by Saint Marcus Now that's the part I don't understand. You are saying that a multicultural society only exists in the USA? Or are you saying something else entirely?

I can refer you to the Federalist Papers for a better explanation, but our founding fathers REALLY were afraid of pure or representative democracies where the power lay solely in the hands of the majority party. They believed you really had to have three independent branches, a constitution that protects essential rights, and a Supreme Court that keeps the other two branches in check and that can guarantee individual rights against even theacts and legislation of the other two.

When I say democracy, I really mean the kind where the power is in the hands of the largest party in the legislature. This our founding fathers thought was a tyranny of the majority. In such a democracy, the rights of the minority are not secure.

Ned

	19-05-2002 04:13									#30
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A tyranny of the majority is precisely what the US was, until the blacks got the vote.