25-05-2002 04:10									#151
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It's clear who is winning the console wars

	25-05-2002 04:16									#152
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let's face it, the only area the Xbox is doing ok in is North America, and perhaps the UK. In Continental Europe and Japan it's sales are crap.

Sure it's sales in Japan quadripled. Still it doesn't come close to the PS2's succes.

Only North America. Only there people buy the XBox. Not surprisingly of course, since MS is American. But the biggest market, Japan, remains out of MS's reach, as well as the world's 3rd biggest market, continental Europe. The PS2 is doing EXTREMELY well in all three main markets. It's clear who's winning the console war. And yes, it's already over, the PS2 can't be beaten anymore.

Better luck next time, Microsoft. I'm sure there will be a new console war in 2005 or so.

	25-05-2002 05:20									#153
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quote: Originally posted by Saint Marcus It's clear who is winning the console wars

Nintendo and Sony by the looks of it.

Asher: I fail to see how you are able to complain about Nintendo's use of thier franchises when you are thinking of buying a GC because of them.

	25-05-2002 05:34									#154
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quote: Originally posted by CapTVK As Glonk has no problems coming up with selective 'facts' (without a source) and throwing out statements or reports that don't coincide with his POV. I thought it would be helpful to present some weekly sales figures from Japan. These figures come from Famitsu, a well known and respected gaming magazine which has been listing these hardware sales (collected from retailers, not the manufacturers) charts for years. This one is the most recent hardware chart... I can see how XBOX quadrupled their sales!

Look at least week's sales, it was at 10,000, when I posted that.

When I posted that it was clearly 4 days before these latest sales, so the little ad hominem doesn't work too well.

quote: But the biggest market, Japan, remains out of MS's reach

Japan is NOT the biggest market.

Look at Sony's slides from the E3 presentations on millions of units sold (software and hardware), and North America is roughly twice the size of the Japanese market in terms of volume.

quote: Nintendo and Sony by the looks of it.

Hardly. GC has way more games currently in Japan, that's it. It's also been out many many months (was it nearly a year?) before Xbox in Japan, and has strong Japanese brand new recognition.

Xbox is getting more games and more exclusive games than Gamecube, and once those games start coming out it'll be more clear.

Sony is "winning" right now, but the PS2 is aging fast compared to the competition and more and more households are going multiconsole. What happens when those households go multiconsole? They buy the games for the better console, the gamecube or the xbox, not the PS2.

quote: Asher: I fail to see how you are able to complain about Nintendo's use of thier franchises when you are thinking of buying a GC because of them.

I'm thinking of buying the GC not because of the franchises but because Nintendo knows how to make some games.

If Nintendo would not totally and completely rely on the Franchises they'd have a much better time, IMO.

	25-05-2002 05:46									#155
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So basically, Xbox sales are good in America, Canada, England, and Australia, and suffers in continental Europe and Japan.

Coincidentally, those countries seem to have different tastes as well. After all, David Hasselhoff was wildly successful as a singer in continental Europe.

The problem with those markets that are suffering right now is merely the lack of games that they want to play. With some of the games coming soon, I can see surging sales in both regions. Just wait until Ninja Gaiden, Panzer Dragoon, Phantasy Star Online 2, Shenmue II, etc. come out in Japan -- guaranteed huge sales, those are big name games that Japan has always loved.

To be honest there's no incentive for Japanese gamers to buy an Xbox right now -- what would they play? The only "Japanese" style games on the system are Jet Set Radio Future, Gunvalkyrie, and Dead or Alive 3. I don't see why it's even selling about 2000 units a week with that type of selection

For continental Europe, I have no idea why sales are so "bad" there ("only" 500,000 Xboxes sold so far compared to 400,000 Gamecubes).

Australia especially seems to be eating Xbox up:
http://australianit.news.com.au/art...5e15306,00.html

quote: Figures from market research firm Inform show retailers sold 6997 Xbox consoles last week, compared with 3566 PlayStation 2 consoles. Inform research manager Phil Burnham said the price drop had "definitely" paid off for Microsoft. "It's exactly what they need," he said. "They need to get more consoles out there to continue to secure their position in the market." Mr Burnham said it was too early to tell if Microsoft would maintain sales over the long term. A month's worth of data would give some indication, but he would not suggest what level of sales would be a good result. "I'm sure Microsoft would be happy to see it selling a bit more than the PS2 at the end of the day," he said. But he noted it was not really a "war" since some people would buy both consoles. Mr Burnham said software was just as important as price in determining console sales. "Once Microsoft get a few more triple-A titles out, we'll see a spike in sales," he said. "When Gran Turismo 3 came out last year it had a dramatic effect on PS2 sales." Microsoft presently has three of the top five software titles: Halo and Project Gotham Racing in first and second place and Dead or Alive 3 in fourth place. The PS2 games Grand Theft Auto 3 and Metal Gear Solid 2 took third and fifth place respectively.

	25-05-2002 10:11									#156
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quote: Originally posted by CapTVK As Glonk has no problems coming up with selective 'facts' (without a source) and throwing out statements or reports that don't coincide with his POV. . .

My thoughts exactly.

	25-05-2002 10:12									#157
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quote: Originally posted by Cloud9 My thoughts exactly.

His source was not the correct one, as it was published after my comment and is a different set of data.

So if those are your thoughts exactly, perhaps you should rethink.

My source was Famitsu (the same source as his) but obviously using these most recent figures at the time. Showing me the most recent ones released yesterday means nothing about the original comment.

	25-05-2002 10:14									#158
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quote: Originally posted by Asher His source was not the correct one, as it was published after my comment and is a different set of data.

It doesn't make a difference. It's still only 10,000, compared to more than 60,000!!!

quote: So if those are your thoughts exactly, perhaps you should rethink.

NO!

	25-05-2002 10:19									#159
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quote: Originally posted by Cloud9 It doesn't make a difference. It's still only 10,000, compared to more than 60,000!!!

Yeah, but 10,000 is staggering to me.
It should be selling maybe 10-20.

	25-05-2002 10:21									#160
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quote: Originally posted by Asher Yeah, but 10,000 is staggering to me. It should be selling maybe 10-20.

To you maybe. 60,000 is six times more staggering to me.

	25-05-2002 10:21									#161
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quote: Originally posted by Cloud9 To you maybe. 60,000 is six times more staggering to me.

I wasn't comparing it to the PS2, I was saying 10,000 is staggering just for the Xbox considering the lack of titles to appeal to the Japanese audiences at the time.

	25-05-2002 10:23									#162
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IMHO, that is not very impressive.

	25-05-2002 10:23									#163
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quote: IMHO, that is not very impressive.

No kidding, huh?
But in my opinion it should have been lower still.

Just found some hard numbers:

quote: But the biggest market, Japan, remains out of MS's reach

If Japan is the biggest market, how come it doesn't account for more sales than North America?

From Sony's Press Conference (Pre-E3), 8:57 into it this slide was shown for software shipments:
North America: 69.9M units
Europe/PAL: 42.8M units
Japan: 47.4M units

Also keep in mind that North America's gaming market is growing at a phenomenal pace still, while Japan's is relatively stagnant due to a poor economy and already high levels of market penetration with video games.

	25-05-2002 15:41									#164
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Still:

Xbox only does well in North America and some smaller markets, while the PS2 does well in all the three biggest markets.

It's obvious Sony is winning. There's no way others can overtake the PS2 now. And sure the Xbox may increase sales somewhat in Japan, it still won't overtake the PS2. Same for continental Europe, where the Xbox is doing really, really bad.

	25-05-2002 15:51									#165
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quote: Originally posted by Saint Marcus It's obvious Sony is winning. There's no way others can overtake the PS2 now. And sure the Xbox may increase sales somewhat in Japan, it still won't overtake the PS2. Same for continental Europe, where the Xbox is doing really, really bad.

Er. Don't you mean nothing can overtake the PlayStation? After all, that was such a big success and no-one would ever need a newer, better console....

	25-05-2002 16:44									#166
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I'm thinking in buying the GC, and give it to my 3 years old sister. But only when Pikmin comes out in Europe, because I want to play on the GC too!

The downside of the GC is that no one has an 8" CD-R to pirate GC's games.
Still, comparing with X-Box's game prices, it's a lot better.

And I was never impressed with the Playstation.

	25-05-2002 16:57									#167
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John, I mean in this console war. I'm sure that things will change when another "next generation" of consoles comes along.

	25-05-2002 17:01									#168
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The PS2 is between generations. Asher got that one right, at least.

	25-05-2002 17:57									#170
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Let me ask this question: if the PS2 is really so crappy, then why is it outselling both the GC and XB?

	25-05-2002 18:09									#171
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Because it has been out longer and has more games. Next question.

	25-05-2002 18:12									#172
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sure

	25-05-2002 18:18									#173
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Are you saying that neither of those is true?

	25-05-2002 20:15									#174
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if the PS2 is really half a generation behind the other two, then those two reasons you mentioned won't make people buy the PS2.

	25-05-2002 20:53									#175
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Because people still bought the PSX when the DC was available

	25-05-2002 21:16									#176
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DC failed because of other reasons.

also, people did buy the PS2 and not the PSX when it came out.

	25-05-2002 21:26									#177
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But that was a whole generation gap.

	25-05-2002 21:53									#178
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I thought it was just a 0.5 generation gap

	25-05-2002 23:17									#179
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The point is, Saint Marcus, that nobody's doubting the PS2 will always been around and strong this generation.

The point also is, nobody cares. It's impossible to catch up with that kind of lead, and the hardware itself is inferior to the two real next gen consoles (Gamecube, Xbox) so the point is moot.

There are still tons of awesome games that offer a better gaming experience on both Xbox and Gamecube. I have my PS2, and I'll probably get the odd game for it still, but the majority of the games I'll get will be for the Xbox.

As far as I'm concerned, Sony's not even in this console war. It's lasting just on popularity, not on prowess. It's like having a battle between rock bands (GC and Xbox) while Britney Spears keeps selling more albums than all of them.

	26-05-2002 09:27									#180
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I found an interesting article relating to this thread, and I've bolded some important parts (including Merril Lynch figures for cost):
http://xengamers.com/sections/columns/7237/3/

quote: Xbox fans should have something to cheer about after E3, where Microsoft is sure to have some great games like Mech Assault, Crimson Skies, Project Ego, Quantum Redshift, Project Phoenix, The Unseen and Brute Force, as well as some nice surprises. Xbox Live will show some muscle with the likes of Unreal Championship, Phantasy Star Online, and Sega Sports 2K3 titles, and the Xbox userbase which now stands at roughly 2.5 million happy gamers, should rise rapidly to 3.5 million by the end of June, about one million shy of Microsoft's original target. While this is somewhat disappointing, it's more important to note that MS is poised for excellent future growth. A combination of superior hardware power and flexibility, coupled with huge financial power and marketing muscle is sure to result in a slow but steady increase in Xbox fortunes over the next couple of years. It would be surprising if MS did not drop the price to $199 US this holiday season, and this should go a long way getting the userbase into the 12 million range by this time next year. Xbox hardware costs have always been greatly exaggerated. The most reasonable estimates would place the cost at roughly $235 US to produce an Xbox [$25 CPU, $25 DVD, $50 HD, $50 NVidia, $15 RAM, and $40 for other hardware and $30 for the Flextronics assembly fee (both Merrill Lynch estimates)]. This is a far cry from the $375 US that many have been citing erroneously. Microsoft will be able to match price with Sony if they chose to. As long as first party titles demonstrate the hardware advantages, the Xbox should slowly eat into the PS2’s market share. Sony, Nintendo and Microsoft are all well positioned to deliver 30+ million users to developers by the end of 2004. In all likelihood, the big black box will finish last in the next-generation console race due to difficulties in Japan, but Microsoft will make money, Xbox gamers will be happy, and Xbox 2 will be right around the corner. Microsoft will have gained much needed respect from Japanese gamers and developers, thereby making the Xbox 2 a viable first place contender next time around. If it's one thing you can say about Microsoft is that they are relentless in the pursuit of their marketing goals and the Xbox project should be no different. Xbox gamers are advised to relax, play a game of Spider-Man, salivate over the gameplay in Morrowind, rub their hands with glee at the prospect of playing Star Wars: KOTOR, Project Ego, and Shenmue 2 in a few short months, and about playing Unreal Championship, Phantasy Star Online, and Mech Assault over a stable broadband infrastructure. Have you seen Splinter Cell yet? Metal Gear Solid who? It's a safe bet that the console with the most flexible hardware and biggest marketing budget is here to stay.

So the costs are down to $235US per box, and for a while it was already selling at $299, so they're only losing ~35 per box. But they also make $10 per game, and the average tie-in ratio for new Xbox purchases has been 3.X on launch consistently from the start, and thus far in 2002 there is an average of 7.5 games per Xbox (from Sony's pre-E3 press conference), which means MS has recouped that money already.

One of the reasons MS chose easy to find parts for lots of the Xbox is because, due to the economies of scale, the price will drop far faster than the competition's proprietary offerings. We're seeing the first evidence of that now. It'll be even cheaper to make once the plant in China opens.

Xbox gamers will be happy, and the userbase will slowly grow, and you can bet in the next generation there will be far more people willing to adopt the Xbox^2 than were willing to "risk" adopting the original Xbox, especially if MS delivers the most powerful and developer friendly platform again (which it is poised to do, seeing as Sony's plan for grid computing is being laughed at by most tech analysts)