23-05-2002 00:11									#1
	If you were to make a 2nd UU for each civ... Get a bigger avatar today!

... what would it be.

please state the civ name and a description of the unit (and why)

i'll start.

i think the americans should have a suped up ironclad, because (i believe) america is accredited for inventing the first ironclad.

they could give it a few extra attack points, or defense points (old ironsides ).

my friend suggested a bombard range of 2, but i think thats too advantegous.

	23-05-2002 00:58									#2
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I think the Germans should either have Jet Planes (they invented them first, although they came to late) or U Boats. THe Japanese should have either Kamakazi Planes or Sub Carriers. These are most likely going to be in the WWII unit pack, but I want them in the broader spectrim, & not just in a WWII senario.

	23-05-2002 01:06									#3
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England -

Special Air Service or Super Mega Longbowmen

	23-05-2002 01:06									#4
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The Russians should have the Nuclear Missile XXL Deluxe.

	23-05-2002 02:32									#5
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Hmmm, this could be fun.

Germany - Panzer and Uboat

Britain - Ship of the Lines should be for everyone, just give them a souped up one. That and Longbowmen (and crossbowmen should be given to everyone instead)

Russia - Cossacks and really really cheap but less efficient riflemen

Vikings - Longboats and Berserkers

Americans - F15 and "Patriots" perhaps... ironclads weren't exactly "unique" to the US, and that might be a prerequisite.

	23-05-2002 02:39									#6
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ironclads were invented by the british (i think) and used in the crimean war, a decade before the civil war

	23-05-2002 02:45									#7
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Actually the French did. They just fitted iron plates to the sides of wooden ships in 1855 against Russia. Not sure if you could consider those ironclads, but they were the first metal-armored ships ever. The Monitor VS the Merrimac was most famous because it was the first engagement between 2 ironclads, but it wasn't the first time an ironclad had seen battle.

	23-05-2002 03:09									#8
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For the French : Special knight (most important weapon in the French medieval military, with almost no use of other possible weapons). Napoleonic soldier, as France was the first country to use massive conscription, and almost conquered Europe because of it.

For the Spanish : Tercio ! Something historically accurate, and the Spaniards like them.

For the Russians : something like a quicker settler, to reflect their ability to expand on such a huge territory.

For the Americans : the cowboy (now you Yanks will feel the shame of having a lame UU )

For the Iroquois : a special, quicker musketman (I think he's called the "brave")

For the Germans : a swordsman like unit, like those who destroyed whole Legions and took over Rome.

For the Persians (modern Iranians) : a cheaper infantry (Iran-Irak war)

	23-05-2002 03:24									#9
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The Germans defeated Rome with only what technology was available. They didn't really have any new units... they were all barbarian tribes at that point with primitive weapons. Saying they had Swordsmen at all might even be pushing it.

	23-05-2002 03:34									#10
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Double post, sorry.

	23-05-2002 05:43									#11
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Americans: Minutemen (musketmen with improved defense).
English: Crusaders (knights with 4-3-3).
Germans: UBoats (submarines with an earlier pre-req)
Japan: Kamikaze (perhaps like an early cruise missle?)
Russians: Urban warriors (give them a cool Russian name. High-defense value riflemen or infantry to honor the defense of Stalingrad in WWII.
Vikings: Longship and Berserker.
Spanish: Conquistador and Tercio.
Romans: Legionary and Fire Archers ("On my signal, unleash Hell").
Greeks: Hoplite and Fire Trireme.

That's it. I'm out of ideas.

	23-05-2002 06:34									#12
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England

Longbowman and Highland Infantry

	23-05-2002 09:14									#13
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Americans - Some sort of musketeer guerilla fighter, Americans adopted a good many tactics from the native americans. (In fighting in the fronteir and against the British). Maybe the Americans should get the 'brave' concept that was mentioned before. Or maybe the Americans could have a musketeer that could completly heal anywhere after a few turns.

British - British (Welsh) Longbowman? 5-1-1?

French - a rifleman that is 1-1-5 (CALL LE RETREAT!) hehe

Russians - a really cheap somewhat decent modern unit. Something that shows their historic strength to be able to fight on even if millions are dead. (Better conscript ability?)

Greeks - faster trireme?

Romans - trireme with higher attack. This might sound odd and historically wrong. The romans had pretty simple sea tactics. Latch on and board them using their legions. So I think that this can be represented with a higher trireme attack.

	23-05-2002 09:47									#14
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Americans - Minuteman

English - SAS

Russian - Spetsnaz

German - Teutonic Knight

French - Legionnaire

Spanish - Tercio

Persians - Hashishim

Aztecs - Eagle Knight

Japanese - Ninja

Chinese - Chu Ko Nu

Egypt - Mamluke

India - Thugee

Korea - Hwarang

Viking - Wolfcoat

Greek - Sacred Band

Roman - Praetorian Guard

Just some ideas....

	23-05-2002 20:15									#15
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Just some thoughts for the second UUs:

Germany: - Heavy Artillery (replaces artillery)
England: - Longbowmen (everyone else - Crossbowmen)
Rome: - Trireme (replaces galley)
Greece: - Greek Fire (possibly a galley with lethal bombard)
Egypt: - Mamelukes
Russia - T-34 Tank (a cheaper version of the standard tank)
America- Super Aircraft carrier (carries 8 air units, in conjunction with F-15, it would represent America's modern power)
China - Junk (to replace Caravel)
Japan - Super battleship
France - Cuirassier (replacement for Cavalry)
India - Sepoy (replaces rifleman)

Don't have any ideas for Aztecs, Persians, Babylonians, Zulus, Iroquious

	23-05-2002 20:48									#16
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1. triremes were greek, not roman
2. greek fire was byzantine, not greek

	24-05-2002 01:27									#17
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I've been trying to figure out how to reproduce the American Minutemen. The only idea I've come up with is to make the Minuteman a Musketman, give it a movement of 1, but give it the special ability to retreat instead of losing. The British chased Washington all over, but he kept coming back and harassing them.

	24-05-2002 01:36									#18
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Remember to keep the UUs balanced, so either give all of them a unique ability, or just increase either A, D, OR M by one point like the other UUs. Balance in a game is much more important than coolness or historical accuracy, despite the importance of the latter, and goodness of the former.

	24-05-2002 04:44									#19
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Give the minutemen a submarine-esque ability. They were famous for blending into forests and other types of terrain and causing much havoc that way.

	24-05-2002 07:37									#20
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--CIVILIZATION III---

Rome: Cateract (defensive Knight)
Greece: Companion (offensive Horseman)
Germany: Jaegar (offensive Infantry)
China: War Junk (speedy Caravel)
Japan: Yamato-Class (offensive Battleship)
India: Sepoy (speedy Rifleman)
Aztecs: Eagle Warrior (defensive Warrior)
Iroquois: Brave (fast Musket Man)
Egyptians: Mamuluk (defensive Crusader)
Babylonians: Siege Tower (better Catapult)
Russia: T-34 (defensive Tank)
America: Minuteman (defensive Musket Man)
France: Cuirassiar (offensive Cavalry)
Persia: Fanatic (cheaper Infantry)
Zululand: Sawre (offensive Spearman)
Britian: Longbowman (offensive Crossbowman)


---PLAY THE WORLD---
Spanish: Tercio (offensive Rifleman) w/ Conquistador
Vikings: Longboat (ocean-going Galley) w/ Beserk
Mongols: Que'Tug (faster Knight) w/ other thing
Koreans: Kobukson (defensive Ironclad) w/ Hwacha
Carthagians: War Galley (offensive Galley) w/ Elephant thing
Celtics: BLANK w/ Woad Warrior
#7
#8

	24-05-2002 09:28									#21
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Nice thread. I would add an additional challenge to it though: I think the second UU should come at a different time than the first one, ideally a different century. Too unbalancing to have two special units at once, and then blah regular stuff every other time. Better to spread the UUs out a bit.

For some civs that could be very hard to do since their appearance on the world stage was so short, but I don't think its an impossible ask.

For some of the less technologically advanced civilizations, it might be good to have a Warrior-type unit that comes much later and is much stronger. For instance, the Zulus beat the British several times in the 1800's (and not simply through sheer numbers), which I think would be impossible with a 1 attack unit.

	24-05-2002 09:33									#22
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quote: Originally posted by Signa Russia: T-34 (defensive Tank)

I must disagree with this. The KV I and II series tanks were more defensive tanks, but the T34, 85 and IS series tanks were used in a much more offensive role. T34 tanks especially were quite fast, while the KVs were much slower. Perhaps you meant 'defensive' as less than a technical description, but I just thought I'd say something.

	24-05-2002 16:15									#23
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France: grenadiers (Napoleon's units) -> quick to produce to flood entire continents under them...

	24-05-2002 17:49									#24
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My opinion about unique units...

Barbarians - Huskarl (warrior), Tarkan (horseman)
(this would make the poor bastards a bit more dangerous IMHO)

Romans - Legion, Cataphract (Knight)

Greeks - Hoplite, Companion Cavalry (Horseman)

Germans - Panzer, Teutonic Knight (Knight)

French - Musketeer, Curassier (Cavalry)

English - Man-o-War, Elite Longbowman

Americans - F-15, Minuteman (musketman/rifleman)

Chinese - Rider, Chu Ko Nu Crossbowman (longbow)


As for XP civs...

Spanish - Conquistador, Tercio

Koreans - Hwacha, Turtle Ship

Vikings - Berserk, Longboat


As for the ones not mentioned, I don't have a clue.

Last edited by Jethro83 on 24-05-2002 at 17:55

	25-05-2002 01:28									#25
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quote: Originally posted by Max France: grenadiers (Napoleon's units) -> quick to produce to flood entire continents under them...

Grenadiers weren't very specialized though. Every nation had them, Napoleon just had more of them. While most countries' Imperial Guard Corps had only about 8000 or 10000 troops, in 1812 Napoleon had 26000. The only UU from that era should possibly be early British riflemen. They were very accurate compared to muskets, but slow to load also, which is why Napoleon didn't want to use them.

I'm not really sure what I would pick for a French UU though...

	25-05-2002 01:30									#26
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LordAzreal, don't you think there's enough mounted UUs as it is?

	25-05-2002 03:03									#27
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quote: Originally posted by Harlan Nice thread. I would add an additional challenge to it though: I think the second UU should come at a different time than the first one, ideally a different century. Too unbalancing to have two special units at once, and then blah regular stuff every other time. Better to spread the UUs out a bit.

Until I saw this quote, I thought everyone was off base. For me the biggest problem is lack of balance between UU's. I hate playing Rome in Modern era, not too much use for legionairs. Germany and America are pains because their UU is so late. I like the idea of a teutonic knight as a second UU for germany.

Present UU should be primary UU.
New, 2nd, UU should be secondary. Still UU with special abilities but not as unique as primary. Thus for all civs:

Early UU:
ancient/middle eras-----primary UU
industrial/modern eras--secondary UU
late UU:
ancient/middle eras-----secondary UU
industrial/modern eras--primary UU




What do you think?

	25-05-2002 03:13									#28
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Think maybe more than two is starting to make things to complicated. Its the Americans that are difficult though, they aint old enough to get ancient UU's, but stealth aircraft and effective cruise missiles are their sole preserve in the real world. Babylonian stealth aircraft just dont seem right...

	25-05-2002 03:30									#29
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Who said more than 2? I said 2, the current as primary, a second weaker on in the other half of the game's era so players have something to look forward to.

Maybe America would have a Lewis Explorer who can go 4 tiles in the middle ages, or a pilgrim preacher who has a 10% chance of converting foreign workers within 2 tiles, or
a middle age mountain man who is invisible to horse and chariots, or ...

Babylonian could have: survivalist {each citizen in city eats 1/2 as much food}, neo-scientist {earns 2x beakers}, or barter trade expert {1.5x trade}, or desert rat
{invisible to mounted forces}, or terrorist
{cheap human missle}, or secret police {ability to id spies and moles} or ...

Well you get the idea.

	26-05-2002 10:07									#30
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How about a AWACS unit for the U.S? It can't attack, but its basically a flying radar. It could be used to lift the fog of war, and it would also give bonuses to friendly units. The problem, I know, is that they already have a UU in the same era, the F-15.