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Harlan
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Berkeley, CA, USA
Aug 2005
time: 21:12
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Markos: 42? That's great news as far as the maximum number of simultaneous civs, but really bad news as far as the number of years the game lasts. 
Cyclotron, Grumbold and others, let's all chant together: "third option, third option!" One that gives you choice in determining the special units. This is not grumbling, this is trying to influence the gamemakers so they'll make a better game. Jordanz19, if you don't see how this simple change would make the game so much better, look again. There would be so many hard decisions to make regarding which special unit you choose, to go for something early or late in the game, to get one as a blocking move to prevent someone else from getting a good one, research races to reach them, and so forth. An endless array of strategic gambles and choices, all wiped out by having it predetermined. So no, I don't want the whining to end, and Roman, this camper is still not happy.
Can anyone seriously put forth any gameplay arguments why having the special units all predetermined would be a better way to go?
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Adm.Naismith
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Milano - Italy
Oct 1999
time: 06:12
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quote:
Originally posted by Grumbold on 05-14-2001 07:22 AM
That means you have no unique or custom at start abilities and no chance to get unique or custom abilities throughout the game. Entirely different to earning a custom ability of some kind by developing your civilisation along a certain path to get it. Instead of being told "pick from the following at 4000BC: Roman Legionary, German Panzer, American F-15" I want to be able to say "It is 800 BC, the persions are kicking my arse, I NEED Legions or Cataphracts to turn the tide, how can I get them?" and preferably without killing any chance of earning a different feature 2,000 years later. Any nation that has a long history like England/Britain has had at least one identifiably unique feature in every period of history. Whichever one they choose to represent their uniqueness for the game, it is going to leave the nation featureless and bland throughout the rest of history.
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Yes, the third choice add more deep than on/off switch. I'm afraid I renounced every hope Firaxis will put this thir choice at work: the needed tweak to tech tree, game rules and AI would probably be the stone too much who break the back of designers and developers. 
quote:
Incidentally, since we are now down to a small number of real civs I want to revive the suggestion for identifying their units with real historical flags not silly touches of their "player colour" (Blech) on their units.
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Errh, that's a bit more difficult to me: what flag would you assign to Americans? Modern "50 stars" one? (sorry to all USA citizen, I don't know any proper name of your current flag), or early "independence day"?
What about English colours? And Chinese? I understand Firaxis already chosed Mao as leader, hence you must chose related flags, but did Americans at the time of Lincoln president have the modern flag? (and can Americans players live without it? ).
------------------
Admiral Naismith AKA mcostant
[This message has been edited by Adm.Naismith (edited May 14, 2001).]
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polymths
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Phoenix, AZ, USA
Jan 1970
time: 21:12
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Well I don't know that I won't play with pre-destined Civ specific units but I doubt it. Thank goodness I can turn it OFF!
I mean, to know that you are playing against the German AI and to know that it is pre-destined to have this knowledge of Panzer tanks from 4000 BC FOR ME detracts from gameplay.
But it is important to realize that the vast majority of Civ buyers won't be that nitpicky about this or won't give a damn about the philosophical problem with pre-destined units and might enjoy this uniqueness.
Anyway, a good compromise for all involved.
(I know that know that a better solution would have been to have special units be available in the matter of wonder building so it is still available but simply not pre-destined but this is NOT GOING TO HAPPEN AT THIS LATE STAGE!)
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Harlan
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Berkeley, CA, USA
Aug 2005
time: 21:12
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As mentioned elsewhere, one can make a good comparison between special units and wonders. Imagine if wonders were in the game, but only predetermined civs could have them, for instance when the Egyptians get Stone Building, suddenly they are given the Pyramids. Then, since a lot of people don't like this, the company includes an option to turn off wonders altogether.
What a shame that would be, because the company went through all the trouble of coming up with these wonders, doing all the art, playbalancing them, and then with the stupid decision of having the wonders be predetermined, ruin it. Having wonders turned off isn't a great idea, either. This is EXACTLY what Firaxis is doing with special units. If this happened with wonders, would you say you're "more than satisfied" or "perfectly happy" with that?!? I think not!
Some people are saying well, that may be true, but there's no way Firaxis is going to change things now. Think again. If Civ3 is gonna be released in early 2002, which it probably will be, they have the better part of the year to finish the game. Last we heard, they are only 50% done, and in some reviews they've publically stated how they are still tweaking with how some major features will work (leaders or culture, for instance).
They have done most of the work already in getting the graphics and playbalancing of special units working. To include an option that allows them to not be predetermined is very small potatoes in comparison.
Whether they do so or not I think will largely depend on how well their predetermined idea goes down. Already one game reviewer has snickered at it in an article. Firaxis folks read that, and also read these forums. If people here say, oh well, "I guess pretermined special units is as good as we can hope for, story over," the story will be over. If people here keep on Firaxis' case on this, I believe they'll respond to constructive criticism and make a relatively easy change to the game, a third option with special units.
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14-05-2001 02:30
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