15-05-2001 09:21									#61
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

I'm not sure but oil is such a key resource that I personally would not allow any modern motorised, sea or air units without it until nuclear powered sea vessels become possible. In its day iron was probably equally important before deep mining techniques basically gave it to everybody. Incidentally, I assume Civ won't even attempt to distinguish between surface, midlevel and deep/undersea mining lodes that become available as tech improves?

	15-05-2001 09:59									#63
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

Having new resources appear as tech is gained would be fine. I wouldn't expect them to be treated any differently unless they already have ocean oil rigs factored in as different from oil exploitation on land.

	15-05-2001 11:16									#64
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

LoA, do I have to tell you how annoying your last post was?

quote: As mentioned elsewhere, one can make a good comparison between special units and wonders. Imagine if wonders were in the game, but only predetermined civs could have them, for instance when the Egyptians get Stone Building, suddenly they are given the Pyramids. Then, since a lot of people don't like this, the company includes an option to turn off wonders altogether. What a shame that would be, because the company went through all the trouble of coming up with these wonders, doing all the art, playbalancing them, and then with the stupid decision of having the wonders be predetermined, ruin it. Having wonders turned off isn't a great idea, either. This is EXACTLY what Firaxis is doing with special units. If this happened with wonders, would you say you're "more than satisfied" or "perfectly happy" with that?!? I think not!

My sentiments exactly. It would be greatly irritating to have such an idea in game that I must accept as is or turn it off. What happened to "customization"?

quote: Some people are saying well, that may be true, but there's no way Firaxis is going to change things now. Think again. If Civ3 is gonna be released in early 2002, which it probably will be, they have the better part of the year to finish the game. Last we heard, they are only 50% done, and in some reviews they've publically stated how they are still tweaking with how some major features will work (leaders or culture, for instance).

Indeed, the last review (apparently 2 weeks ago) stated that they were still toying with the idea of whether or not to include a "corporate win". Now to me a completely new and different endgame option sounds like a LOT of codework, to either put it in or (less so) remove it. To tweak the game to allow variation of unique units shouldn't be nearly as much work!

Vote for 3rd option!

	15-05-2001 18:54									#65
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Hurrah. It looks like believers in the third way are massing. My castle is amply stocked for a long seige, you are all welcome to join me on the ramparts. I promise all the beef has been carefully inspected, although my stocks consist mainly of grain and poultry thanks to the recent government led barbecue parties around the country.

Minor techs are one possible choice. Minor wonders are another. Having each one only available to the first player to pick it or free for all to choose from is yet another choice. The status quo is not!

Death or victory! Froth, rant, quotes from ancient battlefields etc ....

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Searching for unique Civilisation growth not predetermined racial templates

	16-05-2001 00:47									#67
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

To me, simply different names and graphics would be a sufficienly distinguishing touch. Having actually different units might simply seriously unbalance the game.

If the "Panzer tank" has greater MPs or more FP or HPs or whatever than the standard "tank", that difference can really be quite unbalancing!

Therefore even if minor techs or some other way was found such that unique units were not pre-destined, it would still be an issue from that regard that only one Civ can get it.

As an extreme example, the most powerful unit is the "howitzer" in Civ2. Imagine that only one Civ could get it (via pre-destination, minor tech, minor wonder, whatever) and how that would seriously unbalance the game!

So philosophically I have two qualms:
1. Pre-destination (Why are units "pre-destined" when wonders are not?)
2. Balance (If only one Civ can get it, does it provide an overwhelming advantage to that Civ?)

	16-05-2001 02:31									#68
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

First let me say that I am vehemently opposed to unique units no matter the option.

Now.

I was thinking that they must have tried to balance the civs with weak - pre-paleolithic unique units with other bonuses.

Do you rememeber that Jeff from Firaxis said that there will be an option to turn off uniques AND other civ differences?

So if you play Romans or Greeks and are stuck with a legion or (maybe) a phalanx then maybe Romans and Greeks would get HIGHER (say) culture bonuses that would make the citizens happier.

In contrast the Germans that have the Panzer might get a penalty in the number of happy people by making say democracy more unstable in the Germans?

Maybe this bonuses - penalties only last for the duration of the unique units of each civ?

What do you think?