13-05-2001 05:14									#1
	Civ Specific Units Got spare money?

According to official Firaxis website, one of the slides reads:
Now that we have iron, we can build fearsome Roman Legions, which are the special unit of the Romans.

As an opponent of Civ specific units, I am outraged!

The Romans should not be pre-destined to have the special Roman Legion unit!

If we're going to go this route, then why don't we just pre-destine the Pyramid Wonder to the Egyptians, etc, etc!

Look, Civ specific units in scenarios are definitely appropriate and needed but not in a general game! In a general game, nothing should be pre-destined for any Civ!

This is an outrage!

	13-05-2001 05:16									#2
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You know we already did this when the previews said there would be Civ Specific Units... now confirmed .

	13-05-2001 05:58									#3
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

How is it confirmed?

It says that having iron resources is going to make you able to build legions.

That doesn't mean legions are civ specific units?

Is this correct or am I missing something?

Please tell.

	13-05-2001 06:28									#5
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I'm just know beggining to see the slides. I can't believe I've missed them. I've only read the text summary.

Listen guys, it's never too late to kidnap Sid and «request» that the Firaxis team takes unics out if they want him back.

Extreme circumstances demand extreme measures.

Now, I 'm starting to believe there is a special purpose to my visit to the USA this summer...

Edit: I saw the slides. Damn it. Unics are in.

I've spent too much time on OT and now things are out of control


[This message has been edited by paiktis22 (edited May 12, 2001).]

	13-05-2001 06:43									#6
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The only hope is that although the "Roman Legions are specific to the Romans", it is merely a graphic/name issue. Other Civs will have units with identical ratings but simply not be called Roman Legions.

	13-05-2001 06:44									#7
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Civilization specific units/abilities/starting techs/etc will be a rule, one that defaults on, but can be disabled.

Jeff

	13-05-2001 06:53									#9
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Fair enough Jeff. I guess Sid can sleep peacefully at night. I'll go see the White House instead of kidnaping him

One worry though: I would hope the AI plays well BOTH with unics and without unics and isn't crippled if we turn the option on or off.

But I trust Firaxis. They will do that.

	13-05-2001 06:56									#10
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Yes, will the game be balanced both with and without unique units? I certainly hope so... The problem is, if "disabling specific units" means removing things like legions and panzers althogether, the catch-22 of this feature being optional could be that without it, you are playing a stripped-down version of the game... a version that is not designed to really stand on its own two feet.

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- Cyclotron7, "that supplementary resource fanatic"

	13-05-2001 07:09									#11
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I guess you should have thought of that before your requested the preference feature . It will be balanced for both rule settings, since the civilization specific units are based on generic units (i.e. the Zulu Impi is a spearmen unit, but with a move of 2).

Jeff

[This message has been edited by Jeffrey Morris FIRAXIS (edited May 12, 2001).]

	13-05-2001 07:11									#12
	Increase the size of your Attachments

You must be joking! I certainly did not request such a feature!

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- Cyclotron7, "that supplementary resource fanatic"

	13-05-2001 07:13									#13
	Increase the size of your Attachments

You will get a lot of angry responses on that command I fear Jeffrey

	13-05-2001 07:15									#14
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

I think a lot of people asked for civ specific graphics, not units.

	13-05-2001 07:37									#15
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No, lots added for Civ Specific Units as well... I believe it is in the list.

I didn't, but if it is minor, than I can live with it.

	13-05-2001 07:51									#17
	Put an end to popups!

Let's just hope they do it right... I don't want to wade through a text file to do it for them

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- Cyclotron7, "The Rajah of Resources"

	13-05-2001 09:38									#19
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"Civilization specific units/abilities/starting techs/etc will be a rule, one that defaults on, but can be disabled."

Thank goodness!

I don't want the game "creating" a unique civ for me . . . I can do the job myself, thank you very much . . . :-)

	13-05-2001 19:30									#23
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Okay, ppl...

Roman legions were more powerful than other nation's legions. They were better trained, equipped, etc. So stop complaining. Why shouldn't they be more powerful? Each real-life civilization has had their own unique units, I am for anything that makes the game more realistic. The Zulus had no access to bronze, yet in earlier Civ games they could produce Phalanx units like there was no tomorrow. Not only should there be Civ specific units, but totally different units for each civ based on resources. I don't like seeing the generalized "Armor" units. I like the idea of Germans having Panzer's, Americans having Sherman's. They just have to create specific units for each civ. What would Babylonian tanks be called?

I agree with Civ specific Wonders... It's stupid that the Vikings can build the Pyramids. The Pyramids were built using stone and sand adobe bricks from the deserts of Egypt, Where are the f*cking deserts in Scandanavia huh?

	13-05-2001 20:06									#25
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yes, Ralf, from what i get from Jeff's post, if you play without unique units, you'll have the generic counterpart instead.

btw, the anti-unique-units people should note that in order to build the special units you need to harvest a special resource...

	13-05-2001 22:03									#26
	Remove this text

Actually, from what we've heard, the Civ-specific units just sound like a bit of nifty flavor, not a game shaking change. I can see both sides of the argument, and am glad that we'll be able to choose. I think they seem like a neat idea.


Joe

	13-05-2001 22:49									#27
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I guess all of the critics of specific units can now have a tall glass of shut-the-hell-up.

And don't worry Cyclotron7, if you don't want to wade through a text file, I'm sure someone will do that and post it in the download section. Of course, if you want to get exactly what you want, as always, you must do it your self. Sorry, such is this world.

	14-05-2001 01:42									#28
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Mmmm! (smacks lips after drinking tall glass of shut-the-hell-up)

Actually, I don't see this as such a great revelation- I would have been very surprised if they didn't include an option to turn special units off.

What would make me really happy, and get me to order a whole case of shut-the-hell-up, is if there was a third option that allowed special units to reach their full strategic potential. Having special units on doesn't do much for strategy- it tends to lock you into a certain style of play regardless of the situation, depending on which civ you choose to play. Turning them off doesn't help deepen the game obviously, and if the special units are tweaked to have the same stats as their non-special counterparts, all you have is a graphical perk that once again does nothing for strategy.

Special units could greatly increase the strategy and the fun of a game if you could control which special units you get, depending on your situation. There have been numerous posts on these forums attempting to improve special unit implementation, and all are based on this idea, of you having some control over which special unit you get, instead of it being fixed. For instance your special unit is based on the terrain around you at the start of your game, or based on the wonders you build, etc..

My favorite solution is to have it based on technology. If Iron Working is needed to trigger the building of Legions, then the first civ to reach Iron Working gets to choose if they want Legions or not (they might choose not if they're angling for some other special unit further down the line that would serve them better). Every civ could only get one, and since there are twice as many special units as max number of civs in a game (as far as we know - 7 or 8 vs. 16) everyone should get one they like.

Whatever the trigger, the main idea is that the players have some control over which special unit they get, instead of having it be fixed thousands of years in advance. What's the fun in having something fixed? Its like having all the spots you can build your cities be preordained, and you have to build them in order, spot one, spot two, etc... Its silly to have that fixed in advanced, and its just as silly to have your civilization's technological discoveries fixed thousands of years beforehand.

Firaxis, we need a THIRD option! You guys are sooo close to having special units be one of the best features of the game, if a strategic choice option is included.

	14-05-2001 01:49									#29
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By the way,
Its great that we're having Firaxian posters here, providing some info. But why the silence on the two biggest burning questions here, how many max civs (7 or 8 or ??) and what years the game starts and ends? These issues have already been revealed in magazine articles, except DIFFERENT ARTICLES CONTRADICT EACH OTHER! So its not like you'd be revealing some great new secret, you'd just be resolving some contradictory info.

For the max civ question, people have been arguing over Firaxian intentions for coming on 200 posts- you could solve that controversy with a sentence or two. Please tell, even if the answer is just "we're still working on that".

	14-05-2001 02:08									#30
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This thread seems to be overlooking much of the discussion that has been undertaken on this site and trying to make the issue black and white. The choice is not unique civs yes/no, it is how to make civs unique and how far to do so. I am a fervent advocate of allowing civs to become unique because of the choices they make and how they grow. Giving them set specific advantages in 4000 BC to last them throughout history is the antithesis of that. In every game the "Romans" will be exactly the same to play. They won't get a Roman jet airplane because historically they ceased to be a nation in the middle ages. In a multiplayer game first contact with a nation will immediately tell you exactly what abilities you opponent possesses.

Set starting civs is one small step better than having absolutely no customisation at all but no further forward than the concept introduced in SMAC. It is a disappointingly poor second place to having truly unique civs develop during the game so no two "Roman" nations are ever quite the same.

Tip of the hat to Harlan, he beat me to the punch. Gald someone else posting today feels the same way about it
[This message has been edited by Grumbold (edited May 13, 2001).]