24-05-2002 21:34									#31
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White is a social catagory, not a color. Southern Europeans are not considered white by some. A friend related to me how she turned around when she was in England cuz someone was screaming "You Black bastard!" She couldn't see a Black man anywhere but finally realized that the shouter was refering to a Greek taxi driver.

	24-05-2002 21:37									#32
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Can't think of any examples of heterosexuals being persecuted..

	24-05-2002 21:37									#33
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quote: Originally posted by MrFun Cal, I am VERY much for equal rights. Those type of people in white advocacy gorups are not necessarily racist, but delusioned, paranoid, insecure, or for some of them -- actually racist. Since you posted on my thread, care to answer my two initial questions? I even give permission for use of imagination and creativity to provide me with some comic relief.

Oh, you are so gracious to give me such permission!

Your name is apt MrFun, half of what you post gives me a laugh.

quote: Has there been a long history of persecutions against white Northern Europeans because of their race?

Probably not, but who cares? Are you only allowed to celebrate your heritage if you "have a long history of persecution"?

quote: Has there been a long history of persecutions against heterosexual men because of their sexual orientation?

Nope.

	24-05-2002 21:38									#34
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EDIT --- crossposting corrected


Ok, so we have answered both of my questions then.

1) There has been past crimes against humanity committed by whites onto other whites.

2) There has never been persecution against heterosexuals.




Now, to my next question:

1) Due to the persecution of whites by other whites in the past, is there really a need for advocacy organizations such as NAAWP?



PS: We have already proven the need for gay pride and not straight pride, so that is the end of that part.

Also, Cal keeps ignoring the fact that I agree that celebration of white ethnic or cultural heritage is legitimate.

	24-05-2002 21:40									#35
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Integration is really a two-way process. If a bunch of minorites after years of being ignored stats to force-feed the white norm with their culture some whites will be prone to feel uneasy about it all.

	24-05-2002 21:42									#36
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I did check

I have a rather sluggish connection to Poly right now, and the time stamps are pretty close...

	24-05-2002 21:44									#37
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I accidentally cross posted too.

Reread my latest post guys, please.

thanks

	24-05-2002 21:44									#38
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara White is a social catagory, not a color.

Ah, and here beginith the leftist sociological drivel...

	24-05-2002 21:48									#39
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So you're actually white David James?
The last time I saw you in front of the west ham goal you looked more like brown

	24-05-2002 21:50									#40
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quote: Originally posted by MrFun 1) Due to the persecution of whites by other whites in the past, is there really a need for advocacy organizations such as NAAWP?

Whites are targeted for discrimination through affirmative action.

quote: Also, Cal keeps ignoring the fact that I agree that celebration of white ethnic or cultural heritage is legitimate.

I think celebration of any ethnic heritage is silly.

	24-05-2002 21:55									#41
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Exclusive grouping will only lead to more seperation between groups. As I said earlier, a humanitarian advocacy group would be more powerful (assuming all the factional groups joined it) and less divisive.

Pride of any sort (nationalistic, racial, religious, or based on sexual preference) is a dangerous thing. Just about every war ever fought, every (wide spread) injustice ever done, can be attributed at least in part to some form of pride taken too far.

I think an easy test of whether personal pride is well founded is if you can transfer that pride to humanity, rather than the exclusive grouping it currently is in. If it can't do that, it's because the individual requires someone to 'look down' on to feel superior. If you can do it, then why the hell not do it?

No one is more entitled to feel proud of their heritage than anyone else. Again it would be best to place this pride in an inclusive grouping, rather than exclusive.

	24-05-2002 21:58									#42
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David James, would you care to explain why the Irish weren't considered white in the US? How about Italians, Croatians and Greeks? All were considered black in the 19th and early 20th Century. In Haiti, people Americans consider to be Black would be considered white. In South Africa, an African-American visiting the country was legally white. Whiteness doesn't depend on the color of your skin. It depends on what people consider you.

Cali, what do you then suggest should be done to counter discrimination that favors whites? Any program which targets white favoritism will be targetting whites. In your definition that will be racism.

	24-05-2002 21:58									#43
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara The Irish wren't cosidered white for a long time, you know. There's a good book on the subject of Irish oppression, How the Irish Became White.

You know, this is silly. The Irish were only "persecuted" (and I use the term with a lot of reservation) after the Reformation when they continued to support Catholic Pretenders to the English (and later British) throne. Had they succeeded, we'd not be sitting here yabbering on about alleged persecution of this, that, and the other thing. We'd still all be under the boot of unaltered of state-supported Roman Catholicism. If anything, the rest of the world owes Protestant Northern Europeans a load of thanks for showing the world that human liberty is possible, for the fight against Catholic persecution later turned into a fight for civil liberties. So there.

This reminds me of that academic device; the counterfactual. Had whites never existed, would the world be a better place? I think you know my answer and I think that if most of you actually think about you'll be forced to agree, however reluctantly.

	24-05-2002 22:00									#44
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I would argue that straight white males are persecuted today, through various affirmitive action and "pro-diversity" programs in universities and businesses, and also by the very existence of groups such as the NAACP. Minorities already have equal rights (well, perhaps not homosexuals), now all they want are entitlements at the expense of white males.

Homosexuals are probably a slightly different story - they certainly don't have equal rights in most US states, and as such I can see a function for BENIGN homosexual advocacy groups, so long as said groups do not aggressively cram their beliefs down the throats of others, particularly children in schools.

On the issue of rights to form groups, though, even assuming white advocacy groups are necessarily racist - which isn't true - they have just as much right to organize and promote their views in a benign fashion, just as everyone else does.

	24-05-2002 22:05									#46
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Cali, what do you then suggest should be done to counter discrimination that favors whites? Any program which targets white favoritism will be targetting whites. In your definition that will be racism.

There isnt any way to counter dicrimination that favors whites without discriminating against whites, so best just to let things be. If anyone makes selections based on race alone they will make bad choices anyway. They punish themselves.

	24-05-2002 22:13									#47
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quote: Originally posted by Caligastia There isnt any way to counter dicrimination that favors whites without discriminating against whites, so best just to let things be.

Oh sure, that's easy for the white guys to say when they have the cards stacked in favour of them. If the situation was reversed, the whites would be screaming, just like they're screaming now because 10 per cent of the jobs are reserved for minorities. They whine and ***** because they no longer are guaranteed to get all the jobs and they actually have to display some merit to get a job.

	24-05-2002 22:14									#48
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Cali, what do you then suggest should be done to counter discrimination that favors whites? Any program which targets white favoritism will be targetting whites. In your definition that will be racism.


I didn't like his answer so I will answer.

Focus on education first, try to remove the financial impediment to university. Plus improve the public school system so that most people are on a level playing field to enter university.

Equal access to education will allow equal access to qualification which should produce equal access to employment.

	24-05-2002 22:15									#49
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quote: Originally posted by Caligastia There isnt any way to counter dicrimination that favors whites without discriminating against whites, so best just to let things be.

And there we have Caligastia's admission that he is in favor of white supremacy.


YOU LOSE, RACIST!

	24-05-2002 22:20									#50
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You said it better than me Garth.

	24-05-2002 22:25									#51
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quote: Focus on education first, try to remove the financial impediment to university.

Basically, fill up limited slots with minorities who couldn't otherwise afford it (or in many cases even get in) using taxpayer money, closing slots for those who CAN both afford and deserve it. Great solution

quote: Plus improve the public school system so that most people are on a level playing field to enter university.

So basically, set standardized tests to the lowest common denominator and teach a bunch of fluff in class, artificially inflating grades of the people who, going by percentages, make the worst grades in real school. Yet another great solution

	24-05-2002 22:28									#52
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quote: They whine and ***** because they no longer are guaranteed to get all the jobs and they actually have to display some merit to get a job.

As opposed by minorities, who have 10% of jobs - by your own admission - reserved for them.

Oh excuse me, I guess they do have to compete among each other.

Or we could just let everyone compete with everyone else, and guarantee no jobs for any group - if 100% of whites work at a company, so what, and same thing if 100% of blacks work there.

	24-05-2002 22:29									#53
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I dont think thats what he meant David

	24-05-2002 22:31									#54
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I am infavor of equality of opportunity, not the forced equality of outcome.

	24-05-2002 22:31									#55
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Perhaps not, but that's the reality of what happens.

	24-05-2002 22:33									#56
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quote: I am infavor of equality of opportunity, not the forced equality of outcome.

I'm in favor of equal opportunity only insofar as it covers rights. I'm not in favor of people getting educations they couldn't otherwise afford.

	24-05-2002 22:36									#57
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quote: Originally posted by Garth Vader Focus on education first, try to remove the financial impediment to university. Plus improve the public school system so that most people are on a level playing field to enter university. Equal access to education will allow equal access to qualification which should produce equal access to employment.

Now this is a classic racist comment.

"The reason them non-white folk don't get hired is cause they ain't educated," says the racist

"What about them Chinese. They mighty smart," says the dumb redneck (he's dumb cause he doesn't know how to be a redneck.)

"Well, they got book smarts, they ain't got what it takes to be a CEO," says the racists.

"What about all those rich Chinese who are CEOs of successful multinational corporations," says the dumb redneck.

"Well, they just know how to run a multinational corporation, they haven't got what it takes to run a red-white-and-blue American corporation," says the racist.

"Well, I can't think of any Chinese who are CEOs of an American corporation, so I guess you're right," the dumb redneck said.

"Damm right, but them Chinese say that it's all about racism, bunch of whiners," says the racist.

	24-05-2002 22:37									#58
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Back to the actual thread

Would any of you care to summarize the plot of the latest Hollywood film, "Enough"? Be honest now and take care to accurately depict the main characters...

	24-05-2002 22:39									#59
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MF

I dont remember if you're a student or not. If you are, or will be again, what will your opinion be if you dont get into the school you want even if you're more qualified because you're white (I assume). Reverse discrimination does exist.

	24-05-2002 22:39									#60
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quote: Originally posted by Caligastia I am infavor of equality of opportunity, not the forced equality of outcome.

You just oppose creating equal opportunities.