24-05-2002 22:40									#61
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quote: Originally posted by David Floyd As opposed by minorities, who have 10% of jobs - by your own admission - reserved for them. Oh excuse me, I guess they do have to compete among each other. Or we could just let everyone compete with everyone else, and guarantee no jobs for any group - if 100% of whites work at a company, so what, and same thing if 100% of blacks work there.

Sure, in a perfect world, race wouldn't matter. In a perfect world, we would be judged on our abilities. In a perfect world....

Yes, there is extensive competition among minorities for the few jobs that are set aside for them. Or do you think that only one minority person applies for the single job set aside for minotiries.

	24-05-2002 22:43									#62
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So you figure anti-white discrimination is a solution to anti-black discrimination in a country that is 80% white?

	24-05-2002 22:46									#63
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We've had dozens of people saying the same thing hundreds of times and the response is: how would you remove the prejudicial barriers within the workforce.

And no one has been able to provide a decent alternative.

So to paraphrase Churchill, AA has flaws, but it is better than the alternative.

	24-05-2002 22:48									#64
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara You just oppose creating equal opportunities.

I am in favor of giving everyone an equal opportunity to educate themselves. Giving someone a job because of their race is creating an outcome. A new job may be an opportunity, but getting it should be the outcome of education.

	24-05-2002 22:52									#65
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IMO the only alternative is time and education. Affirmative action only enforces the stereotype that African-Americans cant succeed on their own merit.

	24-05-2002 22:55									#66
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So what Spence and Cali are saying is that them Black folks can't get ahead cause they ain't smart.

**cough** Racists **cough**

	24-05-2002 22:58									#67
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quote: Originally posted by Tingkai So what Spence and Cali are saying is that them Black folks can't get ahead cause they ain't smart. **cough** Racists **cough**

No, Im saying that if everyone has the same opportunity to better themselves, nobody can blame their lack of success on anyone else. You seem to think that black would come out worst in this scenario.

**cough** Racist **cough**

	24-05-2002 23:00									#68
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Basically, fill up limited slots with minorities who couldn't otherwise afford it (or in many cases even get in) using taxpayer money, closing slots for those who CAN both afford and deserve it. Great solution

So if you are poor, forget about education, forget about a future. Even better solution

	24-05-2002 23:02									#69
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quote: Originally posted by Caligastia No, Im saying that if everyone has the same opportunity to better themselves, nobody can blame their lack of success on anyone else. You seem to think that black would come out worst in this scenario. **cough** Racist **cough**

No, you're living in a dream world. In a perfect world, you'd be right, but this ain't no perfect world.

And on that note, I'll say good night. Catch ya in the morning.

	24-05-2002 23:05									#70
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But, of course, Cali refuses to support any system which would create the same opportunity to better ones self. He believes in leaving the structures of white supremacy intact while claiming to be for equal opportunity.

	24-05-2002 23:06									#71
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What always gets me about Affirmative Action programs, beyond the fact that they are a heavily disguised form of discrimination, is the way they're implemented, at least here.

It started with the hiring and promotion of women. They wanted to get various gov't workforces 50% female. So instead of taking a long-term view of things and saying that 50% of new hires would be women, the number is bumped up to 60 or 70 in order to achieve 50% within a ridiculously short period of time. Well given the age structure of the workforce what is going to end up happening is that it'll be overrepresented with females eventually. And we see the same nonsense with other minorities. This is also the case when it comes to senior positions. Somehow it is deemed acceptable to rapidly promote women and minorities into senior positions when it took decades for the men who are there to get there. Governments are run bad enough as it is without engaging in this kind of silliness.

	24-05-2002 23:07									#72
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quote: Originally posted by Tingkai So what Spence and Cali are saying is that them Black folks can't get ahead cause they ain't smart. **cough** Racists **cough**

Can you read?

	24-05-2002 23:18									#73
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I have to agree with Garth and David James. Focus on the educational aspects. That is the only way for poor urban minorities to succeed. Their schools, frankly, suck. Tinkai, you are being an idiot, and very PC. Anyone that disagrees with you is a racist. You, sir, are a moron of the highest degree. You fail to read their arguments and simply counter with racist claims. YES, urban blacks (hispanics, asians, whites, etc) don't get the education they need. So, yes, they aren't as educated. Get your head out of your ass, and propose something better than, 'well whites discriminated for years, so now it is their turn to be discriminated for years'.

And no, I'm not white .

	24-05-2002 23:22									#74
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Imran, the problem with that is, in order to bring Black schools up to parity with white schools, money that could be used to improve white schools will have to be divereted to help Black schools. The same people who are screaming now about AA will scream about paying for school systems in the cities.

Which is not to say it's a bad idea. It's probably the best idea for ending economic disparity between "the races." Which is why it will be opposed once AA is dismantled.

	24-05-2002 23:24									#75
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Allocate an equal amount of money to every student in every school.

	24-05-2002 23:27									#76
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If someone had started a threads entitled

A Tribute to the Persecuted Black Man

A Tribute to the Persecuted Homosexual

A Tribute to the Persecuted Black Homosexual

or

A Tribute to the Persecuted Black Female Homosexual

that person would have been called a racist or a bigot by most of you here. But because it has White, Hetero, Man it is supposed to be witty.

	24-05-2002 23:28									#77
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School costs are higher in cities than in the country. Land costs more, the cost of living is higher so salaries need to be higher. The buildings are older so maintence is higher.

Since whites, in general, make more money than minorities, whites would be subsidizing minority education, in order to equalize the money per student ratio. Again, taking your viewpoint and extending it logically, you would have to be opposed to such a system.

	24-05-2002 23:38									#78
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White? White!? ****in A.....Im not white. Im German and Russian. And many "Whites" are anglo-saxons, aryans, hispanics, slavs, I could go on.....

	24-05-2002 23:40									#79
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Thank God FG, for a while there I thought you were white!

	24-05-2002 23:45									#80
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Do I want hotdogs or hamburgers?

	24-05-2002 23:45									#81
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quote: Originally posted by Garth Vader So if you are poor, forget about education, forget about a future. Even better solution

errr.......thats not it. If it was equal oppurtunity. And not color prefrence it would be great. But since the poor blackman can get a free ride to college, yet the poor white man cant...how is that helpful ?


You know, there are poor whites. I know its hard to believe for some of the minoritys out there.

	24-05-2002 23:46									#82
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I got a free ride to college, mostly. Just have to pay off those friggan student loans.

	24-05-2002 23:46									#83
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hotdogs

	24-05-2002 23:47									#84
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Thanks.

	24-05-2002 23:47									#85
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anytime

	24-05-2002 23:50									#86
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara I got a free ride to college, mostly. Just have to pay off those friggan student loans.

Did you get any free college credits like those under affirmative action?

	24-05-2002 23:52									#87
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quote: Originally posted by David James You know, this is silly. The Irish were only "persecuted" (and I use the term with a lot of reservation) after the Reformation when they continued to support Catholic Pretenders to the English (and later British) throne. Had they succeeded, we'd not be sitting here yabbering on about alleged persecution of this, that, and the other thing. We'd still all be under the boot of unaltered of state-supported Roman Catholicism. If anything, the rest of the world owes Protestant Northern Europeans a load of thanks for showing the world that human liberty is possible, for the fight against Catholic persecution later turned into a fight for civil liberties. So there.

A multinational Catholic Church diminishes state power more than a state church, such as the Church of England or the Orthodox Churches. When the monarch is both King and in essence, Pope, than they have incredibly more power to diminish civil liberties than if they were only the secular ruler.

The history of the Magna Carta is an example of this. Much of the pressure placed on King John came from the Papacy which I believe imposed an Interdiction on England. Other more recent examples include the creation of the East Timorese state, the overthrow of Ferdinand Marcos, and Liberation Theology in Latin America. In all of these, the power of the Catholic Church was used to diminish the authority of secular rulers.

One other interesting matter to look at in terms of this, is the early history of Protestantism. Martin Luther strongly supported secular authorities, and gave the German princes moral support in their ruthless elimination of a peasant uprising. This led to a Lutheran belief in the primacy of the state, and the rejection of rebellion as a legitimate tool for political change. Centuries later, this played in Adolf Hitler's hands, and Lutherans were some of his most loyal underlings.

The Washington Post had an article yesterday about how the Russian Orthodox Church and the Russian government are strongly tied. This sort of thing tends to happen much less in Catholicism also.

Note that I never went over the basic fact that the so-called Pretenders actually had a better claim to the British throne (being Scotish Stuarts) than some Dutch migrant monarchs.

	24-05-2002 23:54									#88
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quote: Imran, the problem with that is, in order to bring Black schools up to parity with white schools, money that could be used to improve white schools will have to be divereted to help Black schools. The same people who are screaming now about AA will scream about paying for school systems in the cities.

Well, I don't think we should simply be subsidizing 'black schools'. Rather the money should to go inner city or poor schools. A majority of the students may be black in that school, but the focus should be on helping the poor, not any single race.

	24-05-2002 23:56									#89
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quote: Originally posted by faded glory Did you get any free college credits like those under affirmative action?

Well that's a new one. I've never heard that claim before. I hope you're prepared to back it up.

	25-05-2002 00:04									#90
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Last time I checked this thread, there were only 31, and now it has more than doubled in posts!!

Ok -- trying to find the more significant posts to reply to.

quote: Originally posted by SpencerH MF I dont remember if you're a student or not. If you are, or will be again, what will your opinion be if you dont get into the school you want even if you're more qualified because you're white (I assume). Reverse discrimination does exist.

I am an undergraduate, white college student. One time, one of the black students invited me to join their Black Student League, and I was interested, but I just did not have time.
If I am rejected when I apply to a graduate school because they are seeking EQUALLY QUALIFIED minority students, then I will be upset, but will realize that no system is perfect, and I will have to look elsewhere.


Quote from DAVID FLOYD----
"I would argue that straight white males are persecuted today, through various affirmitive action and "pro-diversity" programs in universities and businesses, and also by the very existence of groups such as the NAACP. Minorities already have equal rights (well, perhaps not homosexuals), now all they want are entitlements at the expense of white males.

Homosexuals are probably a slightly different story - they certainly don't have equal rights in most US states, and as such I can see a function for BENIGN homosexual advocacy groups, so long as said groups do not aggressively cram their beliefs down the throats of others, particularly children in schools.

On the issue of rights to form groups, though, even assuming white advocacy groups are necessarily racist - which isn't true - they have just as much right to organize and promote their views in a benign fashion, just as everyone else does."
END OF QUOTE


So you're saying that heterosexual marriages and relationships are not legitimately recognized in society?

You're saying that people get beat up by hetero phobics because they are viled and hated?

Come on, David -- thought you were better than this.

What you see as cramming ideologies down people's throats, I call legitimate advocacy and protest.