24-05-2002 23:01									#1
	Map exchanging with MGE Support Apolyton

How to force the MGE AI to exchange maps?
I get Ai's attitude to Enthusiastic, but the message "no interest about your useless maps" comes again and again...

	24-05-2002 23:27									#2
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Are you certain both parties possess map-making??

SG[1]

	24-05-2002 23:34									#3
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I thought it had to be worshipful - but I may be wrong I usually play MP.

	25-05-2002 00:44									#4
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I have always had great difficulty getting the AI to swap maps. If they are not your ally and unless they will gain more then you, its pretty rare. Even under those circumstances its pretty rare. I play mostly FW.

	25-05-2002 01:59									#5
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I think worshipful is the only sure time to exchange. Enthusiastic is not willing every time.

	25-05-2002 05:18									#6
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quote: Originally posted by SG[1] Are you certain both parties possess map-making??

Yes, that was the problem!

I set the attitude to 0 via the cheat mode - and the result was Enthusiastic . But it worked (with mapmaking).

	26-05-2002 17:59									#7
	Increase the size of your Attachments

Attitude often changes during a diplomatic session, as well. For example, F3 tells you the AI is worshipful. You contact them, they are worshipful. You ask to trade techs. When you return to the main diplomacy menu, they are only enthusiastic.

	26-05-2002 23:37									#8
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I have managed map swaps when "Cordial". I believe this is possible if you have previously given them some science.

----------------

SG(2)

	15-08-2003 05:04									#9
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SG (and anybody else), you are invited here: Civ2-Multiplaying > Map making . Strange opinions occur there...

	15-08-2003 20:53									#10
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I've been able to exchange maps when both the ai & I had Map Making. Usually at Enthusiastic & Worshipful, once or twice at less than that. I don't recall getting maps without the tech.

I think that a good check might be to set up an early contact at Chieftan or Warlord level & see if nice things can happen pre Map Making tech.

	17-08-2003 17:13									#11
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I think the confusion arises because the map trading option is always available. But to the best of my knowledge, it only has a chance of success when both players have map making.

	18-08-2003 10:02									#12
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quote: Originally posted by Mercator I think the confusion arises because the map trading option is always available. But to the best of my knowledge, it only has a chance of success when both players have map making.

That's correct. Early MPE often causes this problem - usually I don't have Mapmaking (MPE often makes LH less crucial, since you can see where you're going without fear of sinking) yet! Pretty embarassing, especially when you've gifted a ton of techs and they "inexplicably" won't share maps

Otherwise, as far as I know you can always gift an AI up to Worshipful and get maps. But, if you break contact and then restart negotiations, even later in the same turn, all the gifting effects are gone. I've had the AI go from Hostile to Worshipful to Icy in the same turn!

	19-08-2003 09:04									#13
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In MGE, I find it extremely unusual to get maps traded at anything other than worshipful. It's happened once or twice (total) at enthusiastic. Period.

In the Paulicy, there's reference to enthusiastic being the target condition when allied.

BTW, I also find "going back for more" -- a 2nd map trade at a later date -- to be nearly impossible. You need to be enough techs ahead to get the attitude up, and any civ that far behind probably isn't exploring enough to make those maps useful. (Unless you're just hunting down their last couple cities, of course... )

Query -- Do gifts of cash or units have the same attitude-boosting affect as techs?

	19-08-2003 18:48									#14
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quote: Originally posted by -Jrabbit In MGE, I find it extremely unusual to get maps traded at anything other than worshipful. It's happened once or twice (total) at enthusiastic. Period.

I seldom get maps at anything less than Worshipful, either.

I find that when I just meet a civ (say, after getting MPE) that's the time to start the process. The same turn you find them, they're often Neutral or Receptive. The turn after, suddenly they're Icy (and you need to gift 2 more techs than otherwise)

	19-08-2003 19:03									#15
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I've only experimented in 2.4.2, and MapMaking is a necessary condition, while Attitude can be interdependent with other conditions. My experience is that AI will always trade maps if Worshipful, sometimes if Enthusiastic, and rarely if Cordial, but if my Reputation is Spotless and I have an Embassy or Marco Polo (or UN) then Enthusiastic becomes "always" and Cordial becomes "sometimes". Alliance may also influence this too, but I have not experimented with this much. I dont think I have ever seen first contact with other civs being higher than Receptive, so there is always some tech-gifting involved in getting them up to these levels.

In my "Grand Tech Plan", MapMaking is usually right after getting Trade, unless I've gotten it already from a hut or another civ. I try to have pre-started Settlers ready to convert to Caravans just before getting Trade so I can build Marco Polo ASAP. With MPE I can see what everyone has, so my first target is usually the civ with MapMaking, which restarts my own research on the next goal.

Another note regarding tech gifting: exchanging techs can also positively influence AI civ attitude, especially if you give them their first choice. So exchanging a tech for Maps can be the first step toward getting those maps. One warning, though: often I find the AI civ breaking discussions after either a map exchange or an alliance gift, so choose which one you are going for first.

In 2.4.2 AI attitudes seem to take a dive at the 200th turn (1750-Emp/Deity, 1500-King/LargeMapEmp) and possibly after discovering Industrialization. A high Power Rating makes them more volatile (more likely to degrade quicker), while a low PR keeps them steadier. Also, just a feeling of mine, getting pretty far ahead of a civ in techs (>5?) seems to cause attitude drop independent of other factors, as well as having multiple Wonders. A gift to bring them back up in Attitude will not last very long either.

-Jrabbit: yes, cash and units also boost attitude, but I have not seen any research on how much. When you offer cash you get several options; I dont think the highest amount is necessary but again that is not based on deliberate investigation.

Last edited by Elephant on 19-08-2003 at 19:19

	19-08-2003 19:17									#16
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quote: Originally posted by Elephant I've only experimented in 2.4.2, and MapMaking is a necessary condition, while Attitude can be interdependent with other conditions. My experience is that AI will always trade maps if Worshipful, sometimes if Enthusiastic, and rarely if Cordial, but if my Reputation is Spotless and I have an Embassy or Marco Polo (or UN) then Enthusiastic becomes "always" and Cordial becomes "sometimes". Alliance may also influence this too, but I have not experimented with this much. I dont think I have ever seen first contact with other civs being higher than Receptive, so there is always some tech-gifting involved in getting them up to these levels.

I've had Enthusiastic map swaps, too, usually after getting an alliance. But usually, if I have the extra tech, I'll just gift it to get to Worshipful. I mean, I've already given them 2-4 techs, what's one more

In passing, in my last game I requested a gift from my allies and was given 1150 g! Considering I was much higher on the PG, is that normal?

	19-08-2003 19:22									#17
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Perhaps you were much lower in gold? It seems they get miserly when you've already got a significant treasury. I was under the impression that they did not gift if you were higher in PG (something Solo said a while back), but have not done my own research on that. What was the other civs Attitude, and what were both of your treasuries before the gift? Also, was your Reputation Spotless?