12-08-2003 04:51									#1
	Map making Remove this text

I am lazy to test it: Must players have Map Making if they want to swap maps in MP?

	12-08-2003 05:20									#2
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No, they just need to have made contact in the game.

Last edited by finbar on 12-08-2003 at 05:30

	12-08-2003 05:35									#3
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This is bad IMHO. It is more interesting with a need of map making.

	12-08-2003 06:56									#4
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Why? The Map Making tech serves a particular function - it lets you build triremes and one of the Wonders. The actual exchange of maps is a function of in-game diplomacy, like exchanging techs and so on.

	12-08-2003 07:29									#5
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I agree with finbar that Map Making is already important because it gives you the power to start using the sea...

On the other hand... I find it funny that you can exchange maps without being able to make maps

But I see no reason or desire to change the way it is.

And in our games... who cares... we usually don't trade maps anyway

	12-08-2003 17:14									#6
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Yeah, I haven't traded maps with anybody in quite a while. (not including game over map trades) I don't trust most of the cut throats that we play with.

	12-08-2003 17:32									#7
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I can't imagine a MP game situation where a map trade wouldn't (or at least couldn't) bite you.

[Yeah, I can just see rah in king chat -- "Oh, by the way, here's the location of my capital, War4."]

In SP, you know the AI "has" the maps anyway...

	12-08-2003 18:29									#8
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There are rare occassions where it might make sense.
1. In a three man game, you start 6 squares from someone and the other person has 2/3 of the rest of the map to grow. I have traded maps to avoid an early war that will hand the third person the game. It makes it easier to establish a peaceful border.
But since I'm not usually into peace, a rare occurance.
2. Later in the game and you want to gang up on the person with a big lead. (fortunately this doesn't happen much either )

	12-08-2003 18:41									#9
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I would suppose that in a 4-people MP the diplomacy (and so map trading - with maps you may persuade an opponent you are in a good situation to make an alliance) is extremely important. I would think a 3-5 player MP is not Civ2 but 'Diplomacy' - winner is a player that persuade others not to attack him but another guy.

I started a PBEM and it IS about alliances and about map trading. But the map is large enough - bad for wars .

	12-08-2003 19:00									#10
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We don't allow official alliances in our games and tech trading is not allowed, so diplomacy still exists but is limited. We do allow tech stealing and caravan delivery agreements, but all aggrements are suspect and likely to be broken at almost anytime.

	12-08-2003 20:03									#11
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Yes... in our games, "agreements" aren't something you depend on for very long... because the second there is an opportunity to gain by breaking it...

	12-08-2003 22:52									#12
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Yes, when you cram 4 people onto a 39x49 map, the outcome is inevitable. Fight for land.

	14-08-2003 02:12									#13
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I actualy never knew you needed mapmaking to trade maps with AI.

	14-08-2003 02:58									#14
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You don't.

	14-08-2003 04:57									#15
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what's a map?

	14-08-2003 15:28									#16
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quote: Originally posted by atawa I actualy never knew you needed mapmaking to trade maps with AI.

Hehe, when I played the ELG's a while back I forgot as well. It took me a couple of minutes (with some profanity ) to figure out why.

	14-08-2003 17:17									#17
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It's been so long since I played with an AI............
So finbar says no and others say yes. Which one is it?

	14-08-2003 17:40									#18
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no

	14-08-2003 17:42									#19
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I thought in SP you did need the tech. But then, its been a while. One of the regular SPers can probably confirm Finbar's assertion.

	14-08-2003 17:43									#20
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no

	14-08-2003 18:22									#21
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quote: Originally posted by DrSpike I thought in SP you did need the tech. But then, its been a while. One of the regular SPers can probably confirm Finbar's assertion.

Nong. MP and SP are exactly the same when it comes to maps. As soon as you meet another civ in the game, you have the option to exchange maps. In SP, you will just about always need the other civ to be Worshipful (or Enthusiastic, at the least) in order for them to agree to an exchange. Handing them a zillion techs usually does the job. Unless you've got a dodgy reputation. Next turn, of course, regardless, they're back to hating your guts.

	14-08-2003 18:32									#22
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quote: Originally posted by finbar Nong. MP and SP are exactly the same when it comes to maps. As soon as you meet another civ in the game, you have the option to exchange maps. In SP, you will just about always need the other civ to be Worshipful (or Enthusiastic, at the least) in order for them to agree to an exchange. Handing them a zillion techs usually does the job. Unless you've got a dodgy reputation. Next turn, of course, regardless, they're back to hating your guts.

Yeah that sounds right............it must be other Civ games where you need the map making corollary to get be able to trade maps.

	14-08-2003 21:43									#23
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Map exchanging with MGE

	14-08-2003 21:48									#24
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Ok now I am confused. Finbar (and many who agree with him) convinced me I misremembered it. But SG seems to suggest there map making makes a difference, and (t)he(y) plays a lot of SP. Somebody sort this out please.

	15-08-2003 00:54									#25
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Yes, someone, anyone.

	15-08-2003 01:27									#26
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I seem to suggest it too. I followed SGs suggestion and it worked.

	15-08-2003 02:37									#27
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So the definative answer is that you need Mapmaking before you can trade maps with the AI?

	15-08-2003 02:43									#28
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Well looking at ST's example it isn't concrete, since the AI has some leeway in deciding which attitude to trade at.

	15-08-2003 03:03									#29
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ARGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGG

	15-08-2003 04:10									#30
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For crying out loud! It's very simple!

You have the capacity to trade maps in SP as soon as you meet another civ in the game. Just as in MP. In SP, whether an AI civ will agree to trade maps is another matter. But the capacity exists. Start an SP game, meet a civ, look at the options available under "Have A Proposal To Make". You can ask to exchange maps.

The thread to which Slow Thinker linked talks about the AI civs' willingness to trade maps. The rule of thumb is that an AI civ will probably agree to exchange maps if:

(a) Their attitude is Worshipful or Enthusiastic. They will rarely agree at a level below Enthusiastic;

(b) You have a Spotless reputation. They will rarely agree if your reputation is less than Spotless;

(c) You are allied with the AI civ in question. But even this doesn't guarantee they will agree.

So, once again, for the slow people - and the very slow person, the economist - you have the capacity to exchange maps with an AI civ from the first meeting. Whether or not the AI civ will agree to an exchange is a different matter.