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StrategicKingMi
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I had an interesting conversation the other day. I had a big lead in a 4 way game and one of the contestants said I sould have built Mikes. But as I posted earlier, in 2 x 2 king, wonders are obsolete, here is why Mikes is obsolete.
Simply put, Mikes is way too expensive to build.
The cost of Mikes is as follows: 2 techs(poly and mono) which equals 1500 beakers..next 8 caravans which properly turned into routes will yeild 1900 gold and 1900 beakers. Thus the total cost is 3400 beakers and 1900 gold.
Now if you build 20 temples and 20 markets the resource cost of this is 120 x 20 = 2400. By raising taxes, you can convert the 1500 beakers that you save from not going for Mikes to gold yeilding 3400 gold or 1700 resources. Thus the cost of 20 markets and 20 temples is 700 resources or 1400 gold. Thoose 8 routes will yeild 12 additional trade bonus at 5 each = 60 per turn which at 50 tax per turn will pay 400 of that 1400 in 10 turns. The markets will pay ( from a city with three bonus and 7 people) 14 gold per turn each or 280 or in 10 turns 2800 gold. Thus you make about 180 gold a turn profit. Not to mention that the extra bonus in your citys will help your citys celebrate much easier.
After the 10 turns, now you earn expotentially.
Mikes in a 40 city civ does not really give you much more of an advantage then a temple + a market does. If you decompartmentalize your citys, in otherwise make 10 citys (never growing more then 3) produce settlers. Another 10 producing ships and units and not growing. Then that leaves you your 20 citys that trade with one another. And sine 20 citys are kept small, mikes is uneeded as it is surpurfalas.
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StrategicKingMi
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Well, most players dont sabatge citys. And even if they do, they will still have to get there with at least 3 diplomats per city. As the first eliminates the production, lets say 20 resources, then the temple which is 40 resources, thats 60 resources or the exact cost of 2 diplos. The third one really hurts, 80 for 30. Good Luck getting 3 diplos to my citys.
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StrategicKingMi
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Oh, and by the way, my mathmatical equation works even better on 1 x 1 deity as trade routes will still produce decent revenue and you have far fewer citys.
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DrFell
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You're forgetting that if you're guaranteed such high payoffs as 1900 gold, you can BUY mikes for 1600 or less gold, or buy caravans in cities with no good trade commodities and send those to build it (which is even cheaper, about 125 gold per caravan, 8 caravans are 1000 gold). Then you have the cost of having your lux so high, which is taking away sci and tax every single turn. When you get mikes and theology, you can celebrate your cities up to maximum size, ever new city has a free cathedral in it no matter how corrupt it is, and when you get your cities up to size you turn down the lux to 0. And don't forget that few people build temples etc. until late on, so it's good to have the wonder simply to take away from an opponent.
In true strate style, here's an example of how it should be done, bear in mind I was fighting a two front war against the Americans and Spanish early on, and this was an early 4-way of mine where I was still trying out strats, which is why I don't have steam engine right now. I am the celts in this one:
 Attachment: fellsway.net
This has been downloaded 2 time(s).
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StrategicKingMi
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You are forgetting Fell, that you must have the tech before you can buy mikes. And against good players that means you will probably lose Mageleons which is far more important thn mikes is.
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DrFell
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The lux saved from having 0% lux rate can go into science, which will get you to navigation quicker after you build mike's anyway.
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StrategicKingMi
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Also, you cant celebrate with 0 lux.
By the by, communism really sucks. There is nothing you can do in a communistic government that you cant do in fundy. And there are many things you can do in fundy you cant do in commie.
1) celebrate easier cause of no unhappiness.
2) virtually no support for any units.
Now, if you are concerned about the draw back which is half tech. Then just deliver caravans exclusively for tech. Science rates too high are why most players lose to me now as after trade I rarely go above 20%. Can others say that?
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DrFell
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All you need is 3 warriors in a communist city and you can support a size 9 city on king (and there is no riot factor). So I don't see why you hate communism so much.
And you do the celebrating in 'batches' ceebrate up as many cities as you can in one go then turn the lux down as far as you can handle (hopefully back down to 0).
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StrategicKingMi
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Please tell me what you can do in Communism that you cant do in fundy? Nobody has answered that question yet. Communism sucks.
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StrategicKingMi
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Also, the most cost effective unit is only available to a fundy government and that is fanatics at 20 resources each.
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StrategicKingMi
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The game rarely gets to spies first off. Even if it does, vet spies are a small advantage over non-vet spies. Now as far as the ONLY other advantage, your tech rate not being halfed. I must stress this, if your science % is over 20% after you get trade, you are being wastefull. To be full effecient, 90% of beakers should be produced by caravans and caravans ONLY! For a 50 resource unit, you can produce 200 beakers of tech not to mention 8-16 extra trade per turn. In terms of gold, the cost, assuming a city that produces 10 resources a turn, is 75 gold and 2 turns of production. Thus you profit from a van, 125 gold and 200 beakers of tech. When your science rate is high, 75 trade that goes to science, is still , any way you slice it, 75 beakers. But if, instead of science, 75 trade goes to taxes. Then you can get 200 beakers and 200 gold. Why on Earth would you want to still keep your science rate over 20%?
Bad supply and demand? Then keep taxes high and start plunking down 1 person citys and see what the supply and demand is. With good supply and demand, now build 2 more settlers into that city and start trading with it.
Again, there is nothing you can do in Communism that you cant accomplish in Fundy.
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Dank
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His thinking is made very clear after playing some test games by myself........I must agree that with the trade working for ya at it's fullest advantage why would you need to keep science high....no reason
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DrFell
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Unless you deliberately avoid navigation and invention, the caravan bonus is going to drop considerably unless you have absolutely huge cities. I'd be suprised if you can get 200 gold every caravan, delivering enough caravans for 1 tech per turn all game. Hard enough to do even if you have an ally.
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StrategicKingMi
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Again, I posted on this as well. Apearently you were not paying attention. Trade routes are progressive. you do not get half when you get navigation and invention. The pot is just reset and you must work your way back to where you were before. After delivering a few below average pay offs, the payoffs will get back to where they were before. I get 500 + bonus routes from trading with other civs long after i got both invention and navigation. These routes do not normally pay 1000 gold, so the theory of half payoffs is shot completely out of the water.
As far as fundy being for a rookie, if you are keeping your science rate that high, then your the rookie, or you are playing with bad players that will let you get away with that. if i get to fundy. you will be fighting an extremely agresive 200 + unit army. The only way to respond to it, is with a 200+ unit army of your own, and since you will take casulties every turn numbering in the many hundreds, if not thousands of resources, the only way to replace them is to buy them, which requires gold which equals gold from taxes and gold from routes. And go ahead, try to do 2 techs a turn, before you can gain any advantage from them, i will steal them and thankyou for them with many dead units of yours.
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EyesOfNight
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Guys you can't argue with the 8 time gameleague champion. I mean come on, he's been at number 1 on gameleague 8 times!! That's a total of 23 hours at number 1!!! That's amazing!
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markusf
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quote:
Originally posted by Alexander's Horse
If you want to see the value of wonders, play a duel at deity level with no wonders. Markusf and I just did that. It means cities almost permanently in disorder, almost impossible to stay in democracy. Huge corruption and production losses even in monarchy during the expansion phase etc. etc. Its really challenging. |
bs. It was your **** map,only being able to build size 3 cities and the fact i was fielding 4 crusaders a city in republic.
Strat is an idiot, he can't accomplish any of what he says in a mp game, and has to resort to playing newbies who don't know that he takes a half hour for a turn. Hell he still hasn't figured out that demand goods mean absolutely nothing, and how to reset routes.
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25-05-2002 06:55
, i question you being able to do this on tiny rock worlds on a continuous basis during mp
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