26-05-2002 16:40									#1
	Unlocking the secrets of the new civ select screen Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

In an attempt to indentify the name of the last civilization, I have begun an intensive study of the civ select screens. I will attach a file I am using as a tool. I gladly welcome anyone willing to help out.
Here is the order I have so far
1 rome 13 Egypt
2 Greece 14 Babylon
3 german 15 Russia
4 China 16 America
5 Japan 17 France
6 India 18 Persia
7 Aztecs 19 Zululand
8 Iroqouis 20 England
9 21
10 22
11 23
12 24
13 carthaginians 25 random

I determined that 13 was Carthage by the fact that they are referred to as the Carthaginians in that old screenshot, plus Carthaginians is the only possible thing that could take up that many letters.
We need to fit in the following civs somewhere
Arabs
Ottomans (turks)
Gauls (celts)
spanish
mongols
vikings

and the unknown
Incas?
Korea?
Mayans?

And one with good graphics programs or really sharp eyes can lend a hand here I think.
I have attached the following three screenshots from the recent video, as well as the old civ select screen for comparison purposes.

Attachment: two civ selects.jpg
This has been downloaded 459 time(s).

	26-05-2002 16:42									#2
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grr, the spacing didn't work right on my last post, especially in the last couple rows.
I hope you can make sense of what I was trying to do.
And one more thing, there seems to be some discrepancys between chart one and two. I think it could be because they were using two to show off the different time periods of Genghis and Isabella, so maybe some of those long civilization names are "industrial isabella" and the such.

	26-05-2002 21:02									#3
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In #3, I think I see Inca, because there's no other civ that ends with nca

	26-05-2002 21:09									#4
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Although that could be "rica" very blurry...

Attachment: nca.bmp
This has been downloaded 41 time(s).

	26-05-2002 23:35									#5
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yeah good thoughts guys ,but I determined that to be America

	27-05-2002 00:27									#6
	Re: Unlocking the secrets of the new civ select screen Inflate your Upload Space

quote: Originally posted by monkspider In an attempt to indentify the name of the last civilization, I have begun an intensive study of the civ select screens. I will attach a file I am using as a tool. I gladly welcome anyone willing to help out. Here is the order I have so far 1 rome 13 Egypt 2 Greece 14 Babylon 3 german 15 Russia 4 China 16 America 5 Japan 17 France 6 India 18 Persia 7 Aztecs 19 Zululand 8 Iroqouis 20 England 9 21 10 22 11 23 12 24 13 carthaginians 25 random I determined that 13 was Carthage by the fact that they are referred to as the Carthaginians in that old screenshot, plus Carthaginians is the only possible thing that could take up that many letters. We need to fit in the following civs somewhere Arabs Ottomans (turks) Gauls (celts) spanish mongols vikings and the unknown Incas? Korea? Mayans? And one with good graphics programs or really sharp eyes can lend a hand here I think. I have attached the following three screenshots from the recent video, as well as the old civ select screen for comparison purposes.

But we need to remember that eight of them say:

Mongol Ancient
Mongol Middle
Mongol Industrial
Mongol Modern
Spain Ancient
Spain Middle
Spain Industrial
Spain Modern

Remember how the guy just clicked on the Civ select screen and it changed portraits from Ancient-Modern? Then a japanese person asked something, and the guy began saying "Well we tricked this up...."

Or I could be wrong.

	27-05-2002 00:31									#7
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Here's a funny one. Maybe they don't know what the final civ is yet.

	27-05-2002 01:27									#8
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quote: Originally posted by Trip Here's a funny one. Maybe they don't know what the final civ is yet.

It wouldn't surprise me. I can imagine them following these threads, desperately trying to find out whether they should include the Incans, Gauls or Celts without disappointing to many people.

	27-05-2002 01:36									#9
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You never know.

I think that the animation of the Hwacha is pretty conclusive though. Why would they show a demo of a unit from the Feudal pack like that, and the rest of the animations are for UUs of other civs? I think that Korea is pretty definite.

	27-05-2002 04:31									#10
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But why would they not include a single American civ? That's simply unthinkable.
So despite the wealth of evidence for Korea, if the Inca aren't in, then they can't be in either. Perhaps there was a misunderstanding regarding the Arabs or Ottomans, who knows?

	27-05-2002 05:49									#11
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Screen 1 looks like the genuine screen, rather than the one engineered for E3.

As far as the new civs are concerned (the last 8 civs on the screen), I make them out to be:

Mongols ??
Spanish Ottomans
Gauls Arabs
Carthagenians Australians??

Can anyone confirm that the last civ name looks like Australians??

It certainly begins with Au..., I think.

Last edited by sgrig on 27-05-2002 at 05:58

	27-05-2002 08:41									#12
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It does rather look like Australians but I'm pretty sure its' random

	28-05-2002 09:48									#13
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anyone out there with magnification tools?

	28-05-2002 12:53									#14
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Use the length of the names to sort in the ones we know. I believe Sgrig is right at least about :

11: 23: Ottomans
12: Gauls 24: Arabs
13: Carthagenians

And as stated 25 probably is "random".

One of 10/22 is probably Mongols, and the other one is equally long, could be Spanish.

Edit: On the other hand, 25 is probably not "random". There are 24 entries for 24 civs, "random" should be below the picture shown.

Last edited by Cesa on 28-05-2002 at 13:01

	28-05-2002 15:11									#15
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In each column with civ names, there are 12 entries, so in total there are 24, not 25 as monkspider counted. So the numbering has to be changed a bit. After watching the clip again, I noticed that the 'random' option is not present anymore in the civ-selection box.

I think it is agreed now that we have:

1 Rome 13 Egypt
2 Greece 14 Babylon
3 Germany 15 Russia
4 China 16 America
5 Japan 17 France
6 India 18 Persia
7 Aztecs 19 Zululand
8 Iroqouis 20 England
9 21
10 22 Ottomans
11 Gauls 23 Arabs
12 Carthagenians 24

9,10,21 seem to be of similar length, with one them definitely being Mongols (I think one of 9 or 10 is definitely Spanish). It is possible that 9,10,21 are Mongols, Spanish, Vikings in some order because of the similar lengths. 24 looks like it begins with Au...

What I'm not quite sure about, is that the original civs are listed as country names (ie "Russia", not "Russians"), but from what we see, it seems that the new civs are listed as tribe names (ie "Spanish", not "Spain). In order to be consistent, we should have Spain, Arabia, Gaul, Carthage, and whatever country names are chosen for Ottomans and Vikings.

Last edited by sgrig on 28-05-2002 at 15:20

	29-05-2002 01:07									#16
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Man, good work Sgrig
Sorry about my numerical errors in the original list

I think I can see Spanish on there, due to what appears to be a "P" as the second letter in 21. And it looks like I can make out a distinctive V and k in 10 and I think I can make out a "g" toward the end in 9. If I am correct, then we would have the following.

1 Rome 13 Egypt
2 Greece 14 Babylon
3 Germany 15 Russia
4 China 16 America
5 Japan 17 France
6 India 18 Persia
7 Aztecs 19 Zululand
8 Iroqouis 20 England
9 Mongols 21 Spanish
10 Vikings 22 Ottomans
11 Gauls 23 Arabs
12 Carthagenians 24 (unknown)

	29-05-2002 01:19									#17
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Here is a new diagram I have created of a close-up of the civ select screen.
Notice how Babylon and what is probably our mystery civ, 24, appear to have the same number of letters.
Babylon has seven, what else could possibly have seven?
Koreans=seven
Incas=Five
Mayas=Six
Sioux=Five
Canadians=nine
Hebrews=seven
ethiopians= ten
dutch= five

So really, out of the possible civs that could still be considered for the XP, only Hebrews and Koreans seem to have the correct number of letters for that last spot. So despite how inconceivable it is that the Koreans would have an artillery UU, and questions of how that they could get a Golden Age from having such a unit, and how equally inconceivable it would be that they would not have a single American civ in the XP, it seems this may be the strongest evidence for the inclusion of Korea in the Civ 3 expansion pack yet.

Attachment: mysterycivdiagram.jpg
This has been downloaded 267 time(s).

	29-05-2002 01:51									#18
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hmmm, using that new analysis the general shape of the word it looks like Hebrews...but that's just what I see

	29-05-2002 01:54									#19
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quote: Originally posted by monkspider Notice how Babylon and what is probably our mystery civ, 24, appear to have the same number of letters. Babylon has seven, what else could possibly have seven? Koreans=seven ... it seems this may be the strongest evidence for the inclusion of Korea in the Civ 3 expansion pack yet.

Sorry, but I'm just not buying it.

First, the Civ select screen does not use true-type fonts, so Babylon (7 letters) ends up being a longer name than not only England (7 letters), but also Iroqouis (8 letters). I don't know what font they're using, but it's not proof either way.
More damning is what Sgrig points out, which is that there is a general convention for naming: if there is a simple, singular name for the region/nation this civ occupied, that name is used. The only "exceptions" in the original 16 were: Aztecs, Iroquois and Zululand.

Given that a Korean civ would most logically be named "Korea" (like "China" or "Japan"), it's 5 letters not 7.

Following this convention for the rest, I get 4 simple ones:

Mongolia (8 letters)
Spain (5)
Gaul (4)
Carthage (8)

and four tough ones that I don't know what to do with: Vikings/Ottomans/Arabs/Unknown

Thoughts?

	29-05-2002 02:01									#20
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no, what sgrig said refutes your position. Although the old civs are as you said, it seems that the new civs are using the longer names of the people (spanish, cathaginians, etc)

	29-05-2002 02:08									#21
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quote: Originally posted by civman2000 no, what sgrig said refutes your position. Although the old civs are as you said, it seems that the new civs are using the longer names of the people (spanish, cathaginians, etc)

Point taken.

Well, I still think that that last one is entirely illegible, and given that you could type in

Koreans
Mayans
or
Raptors

and get roughly the same length. I just think we'll have to wait.

	29-05-2002 02:10									#22
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however, you have a good point that it is not a truetype font

	29-05-2002 03:08									#23
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quote: Originally posted by Bisonbison First, the Civ select screen does not use true-type fonts

That's a good point, I didn't take that under consideration. I only used "America" and "Babylon" as test samples and they both seemed to to about the exact same length.

In any event, this is more evidence, even if not absolute, for the Koreans and Hebrews.

Personally, the last spot *DOES* look like Hebrews to me, but there is more evidence for the Koreans right now (the Hwacha) so it's really tough to say.

	29-05-2002 03:27									#24
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Here are the first three letters of the last civ's name
To me, this really looks like "Heb"
But of course, there is no evidence for the Hebrews while there is a degree of evidence for the Koreans.

	29-05-2002 03:28									#25
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Oops, here they are. So don't give up quite yet Eli.

Attachment: 3letters.jpg
This has been downloaded 253 time(s).

Last edited by monkspider on 29-05-2002 at 03:34

	29-05-2002 04:35									#26
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quote: Originally posted by Bisonbison ...First, the Civ select screen does not use true-type fonts, ...

I disagree. In current versions 1.07 - 1.17 - 1.21 definetly is True Type font just LSANS.TTF in root folder. Make test: rename anything tt font to lsans.ttf and replace original. You will get proof!

	29-05-2002 06:10									#27
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so maybe I wasn't just imagining seeing Heb...that was all of it I could really make out too...

	29-05-2002 12:25									#28
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Firaxis, are you reading this? Are you having fun?

	29-05-2002 14:52									#29
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quote: Originally posted by Bisonbison First, the Civ select screen does not use true-type fonts, so Babylon (7 letters) ends up being a longer name than not only England (7 letters), but also Iroqouis (8 letters). I don't know what font they're using, but it's not proof either way.

Hmmm, it seems to me we are confusing True Type tech, that have the primary scope to be hardware (printer) independent, with Proportional / Monospaced fonts, who refer to width and spacing for character.

If you look at any word processor that use Courier New, you can see it's a True Type font with a fixed lenght for characters i.e. you can exactly align two columns of text containing the same number of every character you chose, while you can't do this using Arial or Verdana.

Well, never mind, excuse my bragging

	29-05-2002 17:37									#30
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I guess that unless somebody has some reallly good graphics software which can somehow make the text clearer (although I doubt that it's possible) we'll just have to wait for more evidence (ie more screenshots, firaxis interviews etc).

I really doubt the Hebrews will be it. First of all, their inclusion will make the Middle East 'over-populated' with civs (althoug this is historically correct!), secondly,and I might be wrong in this, Hebrews refers only to ancient Jewish civilization, so a better choice for the civ name would be Israelites or Israelis.

It is also possible that some of the new civs in the civ-selection screen are listed as countries and others as peoples' names, so this would affect the possible lengths and shapes of words.

Anyway we know for sure what seven of the new civs are, and with some probability, the 8th civ could be:

Hebrews
Koreans
Mayans
Austrians
Australia

(notice Australians is too long, so maybe last civ is listed as Australia?)

Out of the above, I'd say Koreans are in with the highest probability, while Austrians with the lowest.