31-05-2002 17:48									#31
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I consider myself as a greenie (I don't own a car, I ride bicycle & public transportation, I cycle again - recycle and I eat often in restaurants). And I consider myself also as a commie. But I'd go for the green side, 'cos Deidre is MUCH cuter than yang.

	31-05-2002 19:16									#32
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Some good posts there LordAzreal!

The main problem with Yangs commune (as with any communal society) is that people start to feel as though they're doing more work than everybody else or some people just get lazy. This is where the strong authority comes in to make sure everyone does their fair share of the work. Damned slackers ruining our society!

Just out of interest, did anyone see 'The Experiment' on the BBC not long ago? That programme was fascinating and really highlights the above point.

A lot of people here seem to be basing there choice of faction on how much freedom they think they would get. I can understand this but how much freedom and political choice would you get with Morgan or Lal? What if you ended up as one of the poor people capitalism creates at the expense of the ridiculously wealthy? Or what about Lal's democracy - would it be like the USA's presidential elections where only the rich and famous can afford to run for president? Or Lal's bureaucracy where all the decisions are made by faceless, unelected morons? Just some thoughts - i'm not attacking anyone who voted for the above factions.

	31-05-2002 19:57									#33
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Uni - High Tech cadgets and resources that would beat Q and MacGyver combined.

	01-06-2002 22:38									#34
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Beleivers- My worst nightmare, basically America wihtout New York and CAlifornia. Horror
I DO NOT UNDERSTAND why people actually like the spartans, the only difference between them and the NAZI party is racism.
Gains- my first choice of the original factions. The most "Free" of any faction, except for green economics
Morgans- people just dont get capitalism, people DO NOT live in towers with offices in crap, 95% of the population will be living no better than Yangs followers, OR MAYBE WORSE. Capitalism = Institutionalized slavery
Hive- I love nihilism, even though i dont really believe it. State Socialism is the worst type of governement though, i would rather live in a mixed market capitalist state than that. Still Yang is awesome, and who knows? Maybe a true socialist revolution could happen, or the state might really "wither away" (yeah right...)
Lal- 3rd choice, the most free of any faction politically, but probably not socially or economically. Likeley to use war propaganda worse than morgan

Of the add-on pack which i have not played...

Angels- Easily the #1 best faction to live in. Hatred of capitalism, authority, and violence. Almost Anarchy. Perfection.
Drones - 2nd choice. Borderline socialism and anti-authority. But anybody that damages the planet is bad, and industrialization above everything else is a REALLY BAD idea. Likely to have living conditions just as bad as the morgans spartans and hive

Last edited by Xian on 01-06-2002 at 22:58

	01-06-2002 22:49									#35
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forgot about the university- might be fun to be a drone, but intellecual elitism would be worse than Britan's. that makes them likely to become extremely racist even if many different races made up the landing pod, like the morgans

Remeber that chances are, youll be one of the general population of the society, not the ruling class (if their is one) so for example if you choose the hive, assume youll be a peasant or subject, morgans a wage-worker etc. I also think that firaxis was trying to use the SPs and videos as propaganda of the faction leader speaking, not necessarily the truth. so the asetic virtues movie might just be yang's excuses, and the people of the morganite faction dont actually have to live as well as the Network backbone video shows

	02-06-2002 00:45									#36
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"I DO NOT UNDERSTAND why people actually like the spartans, the only difference between them and the NAZI party is racism."

Exactly. And thats the reason i would choose the Spartans.

	02-06-2002 23:11									#37
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I'd change my name to Velbudike Morgan...

-=Vel=-

	02-06-2002 23:28									#38
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Only because you know the 'creature comforts' that you'd get...

Ugh, I hate Morgan and his bloated capitalism. Give me Dee any day.

	03-06-2002 02:09									#39
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quote: Originally posted by Securion "I DO NOT UNDERSTAND why people actually like the spartans, the only difference between them and the NAZI party is racism." Exactly. And thats the reason i would choose the Spartans.

Im not sure if that would be plaesant, lol. Then again Hitler had gun restrictions, and the spartans seem to respect the riught to bear arms, so maybe i was wrong any way

	03-06-2002 04:02									#40
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quote: Originally posted by Xian Im not sure if that would be plaesant, lol. Then again Hitler had gun restrictions, and the spartans seem to respect the riught to bear arms, so maybe i was wrong any way

That, and the fact that the Nazis are hatemongers. The Spartans are simply armed and ready, in case of conflict. They see the realistic view that being prepared for war is the only way to maintain peace. I'd say that the Believers are more hatemongering than the Spartans could ever be. Their ideology is built on attacking, and destroying anything that does not practice their religion as fervently as they do.

	03-06-2002 04:30									#41
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quote: Originally posted by SMAC Fanatic Only because you know the 'creature comforts' that you'd get... Ugh, I hate Morgan and his bloated capitalism. Give me Dee any day.

If you didn't live in a capitalist society, you might not have the computer that you typed those sentences on, or the internet service provider that gets you to Apolyton.

	03-06-2002 05:46									#42
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quote: Originally posted by Mr. President If you didn't live in a capitalist society, you might not have the computer that you typed those sentences on, or the internet service provider that gets you to Apolyton.

True, but that doesn't necessarily mean that people actually NEED those things to achieve happiness.

Though I use a computer a lot, it doesn't make me any happier.

	03-06-2002 08:14									#43
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Then one might ask why you're here? If playing SMAC/X doesn't make you happier in some way, then why do you play it? If using the computer doesn't make you happy, why do you use it? Boil everything down to its lowest denominator and what you are doing is creating happiness for yourself in some way.

Do you *need* material possessions to achieve happiness? Not necessarily. But do material possessions help people achieve either
a) Happiness
or
b) More Happiness
? There's only one possible answer to that one no matter which way you want to look at it.

Remember, there's a *big* difference between contentment and truly being happy.

	03-06-2002 08:35									#44
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Oh my god... here we go with the Capitalism vs Communism thingy again. *arming nukes*

	03-06-2002 09:36									#45
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quote: Originally posted by Archaic Then one might ask why you're here? If playing SMAC/X doesn't make you happier in some way, then why do you play it? If using the computer doesn't make you happy, why do you use it? Boil everything down to its lowest denominator and what you are doing is creating happiness for yourself in some way.

Or otherwise, the vulgar version of creating happiness, a distraction from pain and misery. Either way Archaic's logic is impeccable.

Eh, anyway, having just finished Michael Ely's Centauri Dawn I really wanted to comment about the Spartans, which have always been my least favorite SMAC faction, ideologically. My reasons have been amorphous, because on the surface the Spartans didn't seem particularly worse than the Hive or Believers (based on in-game data). They had qualities worth admiring, such as their stolid determination, discipline, and readiness. But at what a severe domestic and moral price, I've just learned.

First of all, Santiago has to be at least slightly mentally deranged, having as scarred and tumultuous an upbringing as she did in Puerto Rico and "New" Los Angelos. All that untreated psychological trauma as a child now manifests itself in her iron will to enact a utilitarian doctrine for "survival." It seems that her agenda isn't so much the homespun supine citizen milita wisdom of the Right to Bear Arms, as it is Survival of the Fittest. Actually, it's more severe than that, more like "The Weak Deserve to Perish." Weak by Spartan standards is a pretty broad spectrum too, based on their merciless military training. They glorify violence, pain, and the aptitude and willingness to endure both and transcend it into a sort of rapture. Frail newborns are slain, as are creche children who are slow in their primary fighters' training. No use for the weak in Spartan culture. They tend to be very haughty as well, shunning the "soft" life led by more Builder-esque factions, and their infrastructure tends to suffer for it, and quality of life.

Continually in the novel I was struck by how myopic Spartan citizens are. At least Santiago, paranoid and feral as she is, has some diplomatic savvy that comes with being a faction leader. But their soldiers and citizens lived and died for Sparta, unhesitantly, little more than calloused killing machines (reading the descriptions of the "Myrmidon" elite Spartan troops made me think, "Wow, so that's where the extra movement point comes from) . Everything is either a threat or a potential threat. There is a mass inability to somehow think outside their own doctrine at the gestalt picture on Chiron. Santiago also has the least legitmiate claim to rule a faction at all; a minor functionary under Yang who smuggled her "Spartan Coalition" onboard the Unity and staged a deadly mutiny.

Sparta strikes me as a very fascistic society, with few privaledges and harsh punishments. On the SE scale I'd deign it: Police State/Simple/Power. Their brutal doctrine of life coupled with their intensive military training makes them especially dangerous (and it becomes all too apparent in Centauri Dawn, they obviously can't spend all their time training and honing their killing techniques on each other before getting restless. Do they ever). In the name of cleansing the "weak" and "unfit for survival" I also see them smoothly justifying all sorts of atrocity use. At least they have a meticulous code of honor about treaties.

I know, I know, Micheal Ely's vision in the books is just one interpretation, among possible many, in our endlessly versitile, beloved game. Still, since he was the multimedia/casting director and heavily involved in the SMAC project, I'd say his work is a pretty good authority on factional behavior, and concurred with what glimpses of Sparta we get in-game with those quotes and SP movies.

By comparison, I think the life of a Believer is positively pleasant vis-a-vis a Spartan.

	03-06-2002 10:30									#46
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Makes the Spartans sound terrible. In fact as bad, if not worse than the namesake ancient Greek city.

That definition of weak though, ironically makes the Spartans weak themselves (on the inside anyway). Lacking compassion, and regard for life, however frail is weak. Lacking tolerance for said beings, also weak. Under their belief system, shouldn't they too deserve to die? After all, inner strength is more important than outer strength (although outer still has some small extent of importance).

I guess that enlightening post by Marid Audran bumps the Spartans behind the Hive, Gaians and University in my preferences as to who I'd join.

	03-06-2002 11:31									#47
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I think most people don't like Yang cause in the game, he's one tough mofo to beat. That and his diplomacy is very isolationist.

Of course, since I am a Hive player, I don't have any problems!

	03-06-2002 12:13									#48
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Spartans are my favorite to play, so I'd pick them.

	04-06-2002 10:44									#49
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Why do everybody hate/disgust Yang? If you look how the AI plays it seems that he is the only one to be abel to rule an empire.

Back to the capitalism vs communism (by the way Yang is not a true communism, I don't think that he want to kill the goverment):

Why do we, in the capitalist states of the west, live better then the east europe and south part of this planet?

1, Imperialism, we are living on the poor bastards in the south.

2, There is to way to keep yourself in power.
2.1, Military power (police state)
2.2, Giving the people many things to make them week, and afraid to loose the "good" things in life as computer TV and so on.

And do you actuly think that Morgans rape of planet will go on for ever? Look at earth, if every one on this planet would live as good as we do in the west, then we need one more planet.

A planned green economy is the only way. Thats why I vote on Yang.

	04-06-2002 17:35									#50
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quote: Originally posted by waab Why do everybody hate/disgust Yang? If you look how the AI plays it seems that he is the only one to be abel to rule an empire.

Simple answer: ENVY!!! The other factions are somewhat threatened by Yang's benevolent rule over his faction. It is in human nature to break the guy next to you to get ahead, rather than work harder to surpass him. If the drones of each faction knew the truth about Yang's communal utopia, and could disregard the lies and misinformation spread by the spindoctors of those factions, they would defect from their energy-fattened masters to join the Hive (if not the Free Drones in the case of SMAX factions counting in this). Exception being the Gaians, since they are also opposed to capitalism, and there's no energy-fattened masters to defect from.

	04-06-2002 18:32									#51
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quote: Originally posted by waab A planned green economy is the only way. Thats why I vote on Yang.

As a theory it sounds nice, but in practice those at the top are the only ones that get anything from a society like that. Leaders of societies like that talk a good game, but in practice only pain and suffering comes from them.

If done right the Spartan way would be best, but like Yangs utopia I don't think it could go too long without turning into a tryanny. Don't forget these leaders aren't likely to be replaced for hundreds of years. As much as I hate to admit it, I'd be heading for Lal's pod if I knew the other leaders at all.

	05-06-2002 03:55									#52
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I go with gaians. Eventually the green society, due to the persistence of technological progress, becomes viable in a capitalistic framework. Clean sources of energy are plentiful, and economies revolve around efficiency rather than competition for limited resources. Plus Greens just my favorite color
Dave

	06-06-2002 15:54									#53
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I like the eloquence of waab's and LordAzreal's words. They have captured my thinking almost to a 't'. Yang built his cities underground to protect his people from mindworms. Yang uses materials created to enhance the society as a whole, instead of hoarding them for himself (although leading the faction, he should gain some perks with the position). Other factions see the Hive's lack of materialism and see this as tyrannical and evil. But cut away all that unnecessary bull in real-life and you make life more simple and enjoyable.

I think the Believers are the WORST faction ever!!! But, I have to hand it to Firaxis because they created something that evokes strong emotion in players and I think that they did an excellent job in creating them.

I think Yang has the best intentions of his society in mind (even though it is skewed). But if I couldn't get into Yang's pod, I'd probably go with Deidre *mrow!* cause they like planet---I like planet......but I was wondering, do they use deoderant or go without like some hippie people I know?

	06-06-2002 16:05									#54
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quote: Do they use deoderant or go without like some hippie people I know?

In Morgan Industries, you can buy all the deodorant you need with the income you get from your high-paying job!

Your interpretation of the Hive is valid. There is nothing that says the Hive has to be a Stalinist dictatorship (other than that Genejack Factory blurb ). In fact, I hear a popular interpretation of Chairman Yang's agenda is the isolationist utopia.

I like the Gaians very much, but they sometimes make me uncomfortable because they remind me too much of Greenpeace. So Morgan all the way for me.

	06-06-2002 16:47									#55
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quote: Originally posted by Mr. President In Morgan Industries, you can buy all the deodorant you need with the income you get from your high-paying job!

Provided that you HAVE a high-paying job, which most of Morgan's faction probably won't. The gap between rich and poor ever-widens.

	06-06-2002 16:48									#56
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In morgan faction, the only well-paying job is CEO... because the leader gets ALL the money.

	06-06-2002 16:54									#57
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Don't forget Morgan's board of directors. But apart from the CEO and the BoD, there's no good-paying jobs, and even board members definitely aren't paid the same as the CEO.

	06-06-2002 23:59									#58
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First:
- Peacekeepers. I'm a pacifist and liberalist, and the Peacekeepers also value arts and culture. Really the only truly right choice for me.

Second (all good):
- University. It's ok. Nice toys to play with and all.
- Morganites. Decadence. Yes, sweet decadence! I like it.
- Gaians. Well, who wouldn't like running nekkid through the woods.

Not a choice in hell:
- The Hive. Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot, etc... Yang's next in line.
- Spartans. Like I said, I'm a pacifist. Survival is ok, but I wouldn't have a place in their society.
- Believers. The worst bigots and fanatics of all.

	07-06-2002 00:22									#59
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I'm usually just a lurker on this board, but after reading some of the posts on Morgan, I felt I had to respond. When I first played the game, I choose Morgan primarily because of his ideology. To me, he was more like John Galt than Bill Gates. I don't necessarily agree that all of Morgan's people want to live in luxury all the time. The way I see it, you are directly rewarded for your skill, intelligence, and hard work in a free, capitalistic society. I also do not agree that 95% of the population is poor in a Morgan run society. I believe that a strong middle class would evolve. Morgan would never be able to exploit all his followers so that they are all poor. They would just simply go to another faction, or he would be overthrown.

About the communism vs. capitalism thing, I believe the main difference simply comes down to choices. Yea, sure, in a communist society you get lots of "free" stuff. Well, not really - the money used to build that house must come from somewhere. So you pay 50% in taxes. Your still paying for all those "free" things. The difference is, with capitalism, you get a choice on what to spend your money on. You decide what house you want.

I myself live in a somewhat spartan apartment. I have no great ambitions. I just want to watch hockey, play computer games, listen to music, and read. I hate work and I try to avoid it all costs. But, I know my place. I don't expect anything from anybody so that when I do work for something that I want, I know that I earned it. And that's why I would be able to live in anything but a free society.

	07-06-2002 02:17									#60
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Ah, my first post

I'd join the Gaians. Since the beginning of the existence of the human species, we have unbalanced and destroyed ecosystems.
Nature is a sea of knowledge waiting to be explored and perhaps even tinkered with. I like their holistic way of thinking, rather than the short-sightedness so typical of humans.

I also like the Peacekeepers' and University's agendas.

While we have the "gift" of non-instinctive thought, we still preserve a selfish instinct. To deprive us completely of certain instincts takes away from our humanity. So, Yang and Spartans are out of the question since they suppress individuality and comfort, respectively.

Morgan is too materialistic for my liking, and he views everything as a source of profit and not necesarily knowledge.

Miriam is a bane to humanity, representing a step backwards in human social evolution.