28-05-2002 02:49									#31
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quote: Originally posted by Dalgetti oh, sure , in the privacy of her own house. but she ( and since they live in the same house , probably him as well ) put the flag forward, as a proclamation. they could have wallpapered their entire appartment with palestinian flags for all I care. But showing the flag , is putting forward a stance. This is not illegal , AFAIK , but is reprimanded gravely , or should be.

Dismissing him for statements his wife makes is probably illegal.

	28-05-2002 02:51									#32
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It's not like his wife said it . It's hanging on his house.

what exactly should I reread?

	28-05-2002 02:51									#33
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quote: Originally posted by Sprayber Be sure and say that again the next time Bush or another American official mentions God in a speech in the US and all the Anti-religion nuts get upset.

Find me the time I said that he should be barred from mentioning God. On the other hand, I might vote against him for doing that if I were a US citizen...

	28-05-2002 02:53									#34
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quote: Originally posted by Kropotkin That's bull, no matter who came up with that kind of idea. If they had a nazi-flag on the other hand. That would be something I could understand.

why, because the Palenstians dont have the power to kill millions of jews/isrealis? you can bet your ass they would if they could.

	28-05-2002 02:55									#35
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quote: Originally posted by Dalgetti It's not like his wife said it . It's hanging on his house. what exactly should I reread?

a) Doesn't matter. Dismiss him for that and you might well have a lawsuit on your hands (depending on contract he's hired under).

b) You blast off on some post about government officials only being supposed to mimic government positions. I pointed out immediately prior to that that pro-palestinian statements coming directly from the official might well be grounds for dismissal (though not illegal by any stretch of the imagination), but that statements coming from his wife aren't.

	28-05-2002 03:08									#36
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quote: Originally posted by Saint Marcus The Jewish Federation here in Holland is calling for the removal of a Palestininian flag on the house of a local resident. Apparantly, the Jewish Federation and it's (few) supporters find the flag offensive and provocative. Of course, puting an Israeli flag on one's home is no problem.

I am livid!

It's a pity the woman -very cultured- didn't hang a flag of the ANC beside it. That should have stifled ALL criticism!
After all: most people will not dare to admit they support colonialism, apartheid and 'ethnic cleansing'!

	28-05-2002 03:11									#37
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quote: Originally posted by KrazyHorse Find me the time I said that he should be barred from mentioning God. On the other hand, I might vote against him for doing that if I were a US citizen...

Easy there KH. I just meant that I will count on you to set them straight.

	28-05-2002 03:13									#38
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Didn't mean for that to come out aggressive. I know you weren't being insulting...

	28-05-2002 03:47									#39
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Germany flag is OK, nazi flag is not OK.
Palestinian flag is OK, Hamas flag is not OK.

If you disagree with the second sentence then either you think ALL palestinians are terrorist or you think that palestinians don't deserve a flag/country.

	28-05-2002 03:49									#40
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I think it's inappropriate.

Imagine what palestinians would feel like, if Bush puts Israeli flags all around his ranch, so that they could be publically seen.

I do think however, that asking the police to remove it was quite very silly.

	28-05-2002 03:55									#41
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Well, even if it wasnt privat (which it was), but hung on an official building, I dont see any problem with it. The Netherlands are supportive of an Palastinian state, so it would not contradict official positions.

	28-05-2002 04:05									#42
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So we know now Duisenberg's political judgement is as crappy as his monetary. Big deal. He's soon history anyway, and the Froggie repalceing him will be way smoother than to pull a stunt like that.

Calling the police to pull it down wasn't the most intelligent thing that Jewish assoc. ever did. As if there weren't enough legitimate issues for them to raise in Europe today.

	28-05-2002 04:05									#43
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How can we take away the freedom of expression of one individual without making it possible to take away everyone's freedom? Why stop with a government official? WHy not just take everyone's rights away? Because the point of equality and freedom is that it is within EVERYONE'S right to state personal opinion, as long as they do not attempt to speak in an official venue.

	28-05-2002 04:13									#44
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finkian - that's nonsense.

There's always a limit to what one can say, whether in law or in good taste.

I have no problem with him supporting the Palestinains, nor do I find their flag offensive.

However, since he is a senior official, he should refrain from stating his biases publically.

As I said, I would have completely understood if Palestinians were angry if Bush would put Israeli flags around his ranch, and they'd have a right to be.

And again I agree that it was stupid to go to the police.

	28-05-2002 04:34									#45
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quote: Originally posted by Sirotnikov I think it's inappropriate. Imagine what palestinians would feel like, if Bush puts Israeli flags all around his ranch, so that they could be publically seen. I do think however, that asking the police to remove it was quite very silly.

The Zionists are still not content. The wife of Duisenberg will be accused in court by some Zionist pressure group of anti-Semitism -how original!- and inciting to hatred.
Some American Zionist group has declared Duisenberg 'persona non grata'. One can only guess how dangerous this threat may be.

Actually these lobby groups are proving the very thing Mrs. Duisenberg was protesting against. In her opinion it is an extremely influential Zionist pressure group, having a lot of influence on American elections, that makes it possible for Israel to continue its policy of apartheid and 'ethnic cleansing'.
I hope and expect this lawsuit will backfire.

	28-05-2002 04:54									#46
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Well that is pretty stupid then.

And anyway, it's not apartheid but rather a half occupied territory. And it's not ethnic cleansing but rather small scale war.

It appeasr that you have forgotten that real wars exist. But it's so fashionable to use these new cool words.

	28-05-2002 04:55									#47
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quote: There is a difference between government officials of the executive branch , and congressmen and senators which are elected and have a certain immunity. The first are workers of the government , and therefor supposedly shouldn't say anything other than the government position. The second are elected and therefor have the right to say many things that "simple" citizens can't. That's at least the way in our country. Sadly they all talk too much around here .

A nice democracy you have down there, Dal... Congratulations.

This reminds me of 3 German parliamentaries who unfolded a banner which said "stop your wars" during G.W. Bush's visit to the German parliament. The leader of their party was compelled to apologise for this to Bush.

This also reminds me of the lawsuit a Swiss zionist group, "Aktion Kinder des Holokaust", made against swiss indymedia because they permitted the display in one of their pages of a cartoon by Latuff depicting a WW2 jewish ghetto child saying: "I am a Palestinian".

Zionazis, or Zionuts? What do you think?

	28-05-2002 04:59									#48
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I think you are babelling.

	28-05-2002 05:00									#49
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It seems to be contagious.

	28-05-2002 05:01									#50
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In any case - axi - democracy doesn't mean Chaos.

If there's a government policy - you should stick to it. When you represnt the country you are not a private person, you have responsability.

Just like DanQ or MarkG or Ming can't exactly speak their mind on whatever they think, but have to speak as officials.

	28-05-2002 05:08									#51
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It is not against government policy to stick pal flags on your houses

	28-05-2002 05:10									#52
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From a legal perspective I would think that if the building is owned or rented by the government then they have a right to make rules regarding what sorts of symbols are allowed to be connected with them via display on their building. If not, then it's none of their business. On the other hand many high level government officials (at least here) serve at the pleasure of the president, and could legally be ordered to desist or find another job.

	28-05-2002 05:15									#53
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quote: Just like DanQ or MarkG or Ming can't exactly speak their mind on whatever they think, but have to speak as officials.

Um... bad example . Mark frequently speaks his mind on what he thinks.

I think it is telling how the pro-Israeli crowd wants to stifle free speech under the guise that officials shouldn't critisize government policy .

Sikander, it was on his house, which I guess would make it none of the government's business.

	28-05-2002 05:17									#54
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quote: Originally posted by Sirotnikov And anyway, it's not apartheid but rather a half occupied territory. And it's not ethnic cleansing but rather small scale war. It appeasr that you have forgotten that real wars exist. But it's so fashionable to use these new cool words.

'Ethnic cleansing' and warfare are like brother and sister. It was practiced large-scale in Bosnia and in Israel in 1948 and afterwards. I guess even you will not deny plain facts!

About 'apartheid': I have good reasons to believe that Israel has three castes: Ashkenazim, Sephardim and Arab Israelis.

Nor do I have any hope that war will ever end.
What a pity the Zionists brushed aside the opinion of those Orthodox Jews actually living in Palestine: they were all opposed to Zionism because it would disturb their relations with Moslems and Christians!

	28-05-2002 05:18									#55
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quote: Just like DanQ or MarkG or Ming can't exactly speak their mind on whatever they think, but have to speak as officials.

Officials are people who have been assigned an office by a community. Dan and Mark just own the damn place and Ming was chosen by them. They are more like King Marcos and Prince Daniel of Apolytonia, with their champion Lord Ming, than servants of the Apolyton people. So this is a bad analogy.

You peole don't seem to understand anything about semantics. An official can say entirely different things as an official and as a person, he just has to make clear to the world under which identity he is speaking each time. Which is absolutely clear in this case, even if we disregard that it was the wife of the man who actually did the "thing".

	28-05-2002 05:31									#56
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quote: Sikander, it was on his house, which I guess would make it none of the government's business.

So you wouldn't mind if Bush put a dozen of Israeli flags in his ranch in texas, so that they will be easily seen?

quote: It was practiced large-scale in Bosnia and in Israel in 1948 and afterwards. I guess even you will not deny plain facts!

Plain what?

There was no ethnic cleansing in Israel in 1948. There was indeed an end result of many displaced people and refugees, but it wasn't a policy.

There was war, and many populations were 'encouraged' to leave, both on the Jewish and Arab side. A huge number left in 1947, before the war reached a big scale, because they expected it.

About apartheid - no Israel does not have three castes, and it doesn't have two either.

You wouldn't find a difference between Arabs and Jews living in big cities.

The main problem is the backwards villages, which were poorly looked after, but it isn't the government's sole blame, because the arabs are still very conservative and had a tough time leaving the tribal and communal communities in which they lived.

For instance, they refused to accept plans for proper building of villages, allowing wider roads and better appearance, because they insisted on thier tribal village structure and style of building.

Also, most build their own homes privately and illegally, so the state doesn't always collect tax but then they don't have proper services.

This is changing however, mostly for the better. The problem now, is with Palestinians coming from the territories and settling in Israel as Israeli-Arabs, who keep reenforcing the circles supporting illegal construction.

And as far as 95% of the differences between Ashkenazim, Sepharadim and Arabs, it's mostly due to differences in culture, education and social level.

It would be absurd to call USA an apartheid, just because it has many poor minority groups which live in "ghettos", be they black, hispanic or hillbilly.

As far as the Orthodox Jews - most are indeed Zionistic to one level or another.

The problem is that you are basing your view on propoganda by small minority groups.

And their real reason for opposing Zionism was because they believe it prevents the arrival of the messiah, not some pretty "we want to be nice to our neighbours" story.

	28-05-2002 05:34									#57
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quote: So you wouldn't mind if Bush put a dozen of Israeli flags in his ranch in texas, so that they will be easily seen?

No, that's his own damned business.

Hell, we've elected Congressmen and Senators who have worn Israeli pins! Do you think they should have been fired?

	28-05-2002 05:34									#58
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quote: Originally posted by axi You peole don't seem to understand anything about semantics. An official can say entirely different things as an official and as a person, he just has to make clear to the world under which identity he is speaking each time. Which is absolutely clear in this case, even if we disregard that it was the wife of the man who actually did the "thing".

While in office, an official shouldn't make his personal opinions and biases public.

I'm sure that the french embassador was talking as a private person when he reffered to Israel as a "Shitty little country" but he still isn't supposed to do that, while he's an embassador.

Just because you are free to say what ever you want, doesn't mean that it's wise or advisable that you do.

	28-05-2002 05:35									#59
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quote: While in office, an official shouldn't make his personal opinions and biases public.

Like I said, nice to know free speech is alive in Israel .

Why don't you just go all the way and turn into a fascist state. We all know you are just about halfway there.

	28-05-2002 05:36									#60
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quote: Originally posted by Sirotnikov quote: It was practiced large-scale in Bosnia and in Israel in 1948 and afterwards. I guess even you will not deny plain facts! Plain what? There was no ethnic cleansing in Israel in 1948. There was indeed an end result of many displaced people and refugees, but it wasn't a policy.

Maybe he meant when the Arabs tried to clense Jews from Palastine.