28-05-2002 13:26									#91
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quote: Originally posted by S. Kroeze About 'apartheid': I have good reasons to believe that Israel has three castes: Ashkenazim, Sephardim and Arab Israelis.

Why dont you come here and check?

	28-05-2002 14:35									#92
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The claim of the jew organization is pure bullshit.

We cannot tolerate that a lobby impose their will to the rest of the citizens.

If the guy didn't express his political point of view during his duty, he didn't broke any law.

	28-05-2002 15:01									#93
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S. Kroeze is ........

	28-05-2002 15:02									#94
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quote: And while he is in executive office, he should keep them to his private company

Freedom of speech as long as no one hears you, he?
The Reality is officials have to obey the orders but they are not required to agree with them. And if they dont, I see no problem with telling the ppl. so. That happens all the time, and this is a good thing.
You know ppl. expressing their personal opinions is a sign of democracy.

quote: It is obvious the Dutch have a long way to go in sensitivity training.

Based on what? Because we dont only wave US and Israeli flags?

@Israelis
Sorry to disappoint you but the various Jewish Councils in Europe do a poor job representing you. After all the fuss about the FDP in germany (where Friedman even demanded Moellemann to be thrown out of the Party), and now the "flag-incitend" (you get called an anti-semit for waving a pal flag) in holland, Jewish Councils in Europe really have lost their credibility for me and many others.

	28-05-2002 15:04									#95
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quote: Originally posted by Tom201 @Israelis Sorry to disappoint you but the various Jewish Councils in Europe do a poor job representing you. After all the fuss about the FDP in germany (where Friedman even demanded Moellemann to be thrown out of the Party), and now the "flag-incitend" (you get called an anti-semit for waving a pal flag) in holland, Jewish Councils in Europe really have lost their credibility for me and many others.

Yes, but does it really matters? The Euros are a lost cause anyway.

	28-05-2002 15:12									#96
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They're also by far your largest trading partners. I'd be careful about pissing them off too much...

	28-05-2002 15:16									#97
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Israelian words are backed with USA weapons.

	28-05-2002 15:22									#98
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quote: Originally posted by Tom201 After all the fuss about the FDP in germany ...(where Friedman even demanded Moellemann to be thrown out of the Party)

I tend to agree with Friedman on that, just for slightly different reasons. But there is a problem indeed - antisemitism has been so overused in the siliest contexts that it has become virtually meaningless. So how do we call those who hate jews now ?

	28-05-2002 15:44									#99
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I agree Roland.

	28-05-2002 21:56									#100
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I actually agree with Mr Fun on this!

Is the world ending?

	28-05-2002 22:00									#101
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui I actually agree with Mr Fun on this! Is the world ending?

Here on Apolyton, there is never a short supply of surprises.

	28-05-2002 22:44									#102
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I know this is late in the thread, but....

quote: Originally posted by Ned As well, Native Americans are on the warpath over use of Indian symbols in the U.S. Recently, for example, California banned the use of Indian symbols for all governmental functions, such as public schools.

Anyone besides me see the humor in that statement?

	28-05-2002 23:20									#103
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Mr Wim Duisenberg has removed the flag! Mrs Gretta Duisenberg doesn't agree!

Hehe.

-

	28-05-2002 23:31									#104
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[QUOTE] Originally posted by MrFun
Do you not think that our political debates during election times are about anything BUT the politicians' opinions??

You can bet your ass that President Bush and his Republicans will continue to pursue national policies (for good or ill), according to his opinions and other Republicans' opinions.
[/q]
True.

However, if he's a member of the govt. and has a private opinion which can cause him to discriminate on the basis of his personal beliefs - it's not right.

Obviously he can think what ever he wants and talk about it in private.

But he shouldn't make moves as a private person, during his office.

I'm not talking about legality here. I don't think I mentioned the word "legal".

I said it is something that shouldn't happen, or is wrong to happen.

quote: 2) This government official and his wife -- they had every right to display that Palestinian flag on their home. Even if it was inappropriate to do so, it was perfectly legal to do so.

a) it wasn't a government official exactly, but a president of the EC bank. I think that presenting this flag on his house shows personal bias, which can hurt his work.
b) i never said anything about legality, and i said specifically that going to the police was a stupid idea. i'm saying that this isn't right.

Imagine this - this guy is a university dean, and can grant scholarships to students.

Now, he decides to put a flag of a certain sorority in his house. That damages his credibility as an impartial person. It suggests that he prefers one group of students over another, according to issues irrelevant to their excellence.

	29-05-2002 00:41									#105
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Siro, you seem to have understood at least half of the issue now. It's completely up to the EC bank guy whether he wants to put up a flag or not.

What you haven't understood yet is that he apparently don't care if he maintains his 'impartiality' or not. It's one thing to be impartial with regards to two equal entities, such as sororitites, but quite another to be impartial in the face of moral repugnancy.

Hey, ask any single politician if they are for or against pedophilia. Not a single one of them is going to be concerned about preserving impartiality in favor of condemnding it...

So the only thing this flag shows is that this is a man of integrity, who values justice and morality more than the money he might lose because zionist hate-mongers might withdraw their business from the bank...

Or at least his wife does.

	29-05-2002 01:57									#106
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I don't mind if he puts a flag saying "yay to palestinian statehood" or "ney to settlements". But just plain supporting one country over another seems inappropriate for such an official.

i don't think that pedophelia is a comparable issue, and i think you know it as well.

CyberGnu, since when justice and morality are mentioned in the same sentance as the PA?

And the only hate monger around is you, preaching death to israelis, since you see them as agressors just because they dared declare independance.

	29-05-2002 01:59									#107
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quote: Originally posted by Sirotnikov However, if he's a member of the govt. and has a private opinion which can cause him to discriminate on the basis of his personal beliefs - it's not right. Obviously he can think what ever he wants and talk about it in private. But he shouldn't make moves as a private person, during his office. I'm not talking about legality here. I don't think I mentioned the word "legal".

Got shocking news for ya --- President Bush is very much a PUBLIC figure in the United States and in the world.

	29-05-2002 03:03									#108
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quote: However, if he's a member of the govt. and has a private opinion which can cause him to discriminate on the basis of his personal beliefs - it's not right.

<- (that is all I have to say to you)

	29-05-2002 04:22									#109
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quote: I don't mind if he puts a flag saying "yay to palestinian statehood" or "ney to settlements". But just plain supporting one country over another seems inappropriate for such an official.

I think the distinction between the two is negligible. I also think you have realized that you have made an error and is trying to backpedal without admit that you were wrong...

quote: CyberGnu, since when justice and morality are mentioned in the same sentance as the PA?

Whether the PA is full of nice people or not is beside the issue. The PA didn't occupy palestine, Israel did.

Furthermore, it is generally acknowledged that De Gaulle was a complete bastard. That doesn't detract from the justness of the french resistance.

	29-05-2002 04:24									#110
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quote: i don't think that pedophelia is a comparable issue, and i think you know it as well.

Why not? It is repugnant, reprehensible, usually carried out by someone much stronger on a weak victim and the perpetrator usually doesn't understand why he is being labeled a bad guy... Sounds like a perfect description of Israel.

	29-05-2002 04:26									#111
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[quote]And the only hate monger around is you, preaching death to israelis, since you see them as agressors just because they dared declare independance.
[/quote

Ahh, I guess that puts me in the company of other well known hate mongers such as Churchill and Roosevelt. How dare they oppose such innocent practices such as occupation and genocide...

	29-05-2002 04:53									#112
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quote: Originally posted by CyberGnu about pedophilia Why not? It is repugnant, reprehensible, usually carried out by someone much stronger on a weak victim and the perpetrator usually doesn't understand why he is being labeled a bad guy... Sounds like a perfect description of Israel.

Touché!

A lot more than that that has to be considered here and i don't agree with you on this matter...but i have to admit that the comparison does strike a nerve.

	29-05-2002 04:58									#113
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CyberGnu, I thought Europe was officially neutral on the PA vs. Israel situation. Isn't this right?

	29-05-2002 05:23									#114
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Richelieu, thanks :-)

Ned, I'm not sure there is an 'official' european policy... What are you getting at?

	29-05-2002 05:31									#115
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui quote: However, if he's a member of the govt. and has a private opinion which can cause him to discriminate on the basis of his personal beliefs - it's not right. <- (that is all I have to say to you)

How eloquent.


But seriously, I support Israel, but it embarrasses me when some Israelies almost appear to be anti-American or anti-European.

Extremists among the Palestinians is what has caused me to support Israel in their cause.
I would hate to see extremists among Israelies cause me to reconsider.

	29-05-2002 06:02									#116
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quote: Originally posted by CyberGnu Richelieu, thanks :-) Ned, I'm not sure there is an 'official' european policy... What are you getting at?

CyberGnu, Below is a link to the Mitchell Report. The report notes that it is "American Policy" that the settlements stop.

On the issue of EU policy, I thought that the official EU position was the the cycle of violence in Palestine was caused in part by both parties: Israel by continuing to build settlments and the PA by the contining to use terrorism (by at least doing nothing effective to stop it). This actually is the same as the U.S. policy, is it not?

I'm just suggesting that we all try to seek common ground and focus on solutions, not blame.

http://www.cmep.org/MitchellReport.html

	29-05-2002 06:17									#117
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Ahh, I see. Yeah, I think that part is identical. The difference between the EU and US policy seems to be about Israels use of violence (the US has repeatedly declared that they 'respect Israels right to defend themselves, while the EU has unequvocally condemned both the assassinations and 'defensive shield'), and how much Arafat/PA is to blame for past and future terrorist acts.

The US policy is that Arafat is to blame for terrorist acts, regardless of whom carries them out. I find that view baffling... Israel spent a month carefully picking apart the PA, and 24 hours after retreating Bush was back to calling for Arafat to act...


I've already outlined my views on a solution. Implement the Saudi plan, full return to the green line, solve the ROR by either portion of a part of Israel or by reimbursement to nations allowing the refuges to go there, some kind of UN/US monitoring force in the palestinian state to make sure they comply with the treaty and most importantly, a US promise to intervene on the palestinian side if Israel breaks the treaty again.

The treaty will never hold as long as Israel keeps assassinating, reoccupying and closing down roads on palestinian territory. A strict compliance where Israeli troops can't enter palestinian territory for ANY REASON is a must to keep the peace process on track. Otherwise Sharon and his ilk WILL use the slightest provocation as an excuse to kill the pece process again.

	29-05-2002 06:21									#118
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Oh, and possibly making jerusalem an independent entity...

	29-05-2002 06:29									#119
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quote: Originally posted by CyberGnu Ahh, I see. Yeah, I think that part is identical. The difference between the EU and US policy seems to be about Israels use of violence (the US has repeatedly declared that they 'respect Israels right to defend themselves, while the EU has unequvocally condemned both the assassinations and 'defensive shield'), and how much Arafat/PA is to blame for past and future terrorist acts. The US policy is that Arafat is to blame for terrorist acts, regardless of whom carries them out. I find that view baffling... Israel spent a month carefully picking apart the PA, and 24 hours after retreating Bush was back to calling for Arafat to act... I've already outlined my views on a solution. Implement the Saudi plan, full return to the green line, solve the ROR by either portion of a part of Israel or by reimbursement to nations allowing the refuges to go there, some kind of UN/US monitoring force in the palestinian state to make sure they comply with the treaty and most importantly, a US promise to intervene on the palestinian side if Israel breaks the treaty again. The treaty will never hold as long as Israel keeps assassinating, reoccupying and closing down roads on palestinian territory. A strict compliance where Israeli troops can't enter palestinian territory for ANY REASON is a must to keep the peace process on track. Otherwise Sharon and his ilk WILL use the slightest provocation as an excuse to kill the pece process again.

I don't fully agree on all your points, but I do agree we need an interim neutral force between Israel and Palestine for obvious reasons.

The only entity that Israel respects is the U.S. So it looks like U.S. troops will be required. Bush now is against it, but perhaps he could be pursuaded.

On the other issues, they should all be compromised. Neither side should insist that they get 100% of their going-in positions.

	29-05-2002 06:36									#120
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Well, that is actually a problem. How do you define the starting positions? Maybe the negotiations should start with that... So the pre-negotiations should start with Israel claiming all of palestine, while the palestinians claim all as well.

Leaving 28% of palestine to the palestinians sounds a lot more reasonable from that perspective, doesn't it?

And this was actually one of the major flaws at Camp David. Arafat said already before the negotiations started that he didn't have any room to manouver in. He didn't want to go to Camp David for that very reason. And lo and behold, after CD he got accused for not negotiating... 'Refusing the very generous offer of a bantustan'.


Nevertheless, I think the barest minimun for a negotiation is what was agreed upon in the Oslo accords. That leaves the ROR, jerusalem and palestinian sovereignty to be negotiated, IIRC.