28-05-2002 05:39									#61
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui No, that's his own damned business.

I'm sure that many people would disagree with that.

quote: Hell, we've elected Congressmen and Senators who have worn Israeli pins! Do you think they should have been fired?

There's a difference.

You elect congressmen and senators to promote an interest group. That's their job - to represent some interest.

The President's job however, while in office is to represent and promote the American interest, therefore he can not publically support anyone as a personal agenda. At least in theory.

When Bush supports Israel as part of his foreign policy, because it protects American interest, it's ok.

If he, like Clinton, had supported Israel because of his personal liking of it, it would have been wrong.

That's my idea of purity of office.

I also think that the Israeli concept in which a government member is also a member of parliament is wrong and faulted.

	28-05-2002 05:43									#62
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quote: I'm sure that the french embassador was talking as a private person when he reffered to Israel as a "Shitty little country" but he still isn't supposed to do that, while he's an embassador.

The french make a profession out of being rude.

This reminds me of when the American ambassador said to the Greek PM: "**** your parliament! **** your constitution!". I guess that he too was speaking personally then, right?

There is a difference though. Insulting someone is an act punisheable by law, if the victim presses charges. Also in that case, breaking some laws are a good reason to lose an office (like f.e. a lawyer will lose his permit if he commits a felony). But displaying a flag is not an insult to anybody.

	28-05-2002 05:45									#63
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quote: Originally posted by Sirotnikov So you wouldn't mind if Bush put a dozen of Israeli flags in his ranch in texas, so that they will be easily seen?

Why would I mind?

	28-05-2002 05:46									#64
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui quote: While in office, an official shouldn't make his personal opinions and biases public. Like I said, nice to know free speech is alive in Israel . Why don't you just go all the way and turn into a fascist state. We all know you are just about halfway there.

Again you go back to propoganda patterns.

I want to have a serious discussion. If you want to troll, don't troll me.

Again, I repeat, free speech applies to citizens.
When you're in office you have responsability towards the country. I don't think that it is right for a member of the executive or judicial branch, to publicize his personal positions.

His job is to present state position, and not be a private person.

Look at Clinton, again.

He was pro-Israeli not only because of his political line, but also on a personal basis. Infact, he was so much pro-Israeli that he has done some things which I'm sure Americans don't appriciate.

For instance giving pardon to a person who was a rich american jew who used to help mossad sometimes.

	28-05-2002 05:46									#65
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quote: I'm sure that many people would disagree with that.

Then let them disagree. A politicians personal beliefs are his personal beliefs.

quote: You elect congressmen and senators to promote an interest group. That's their job - to represent some interest. The President's job however, while in office is to represent and promote the American interest, therefore he can not publically support anyone as a personal agenda. At least in theory.

BULLSHIT! You know nothing about America. A Congressman or Senator promotes and represents not only the interests of the section of the country he is from, but also the interests of America.

quote: If he, like Clinton, had supported Israel because of his personal liking of it, it would have been wrong.

Yet if a politician has a personal liking towards Israel... that makes him look at Israel more favoribly, and sees backing Israel as in the state's interest.

Sorry, you can't seperate them.

quote: That's my idea of purity of office.

There is not and has never been 'purity of office'.

	28-05-2002 05:47									#66
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quote: Originally posted by Sirotnikov I do think however, that asking the police to remove it was quite very silly.

I agree. But it was not a rash action.

The flag had been hanging there for some weeks without any criticism. Then the neighbours living opposite the Duisenbergs got a little fed up having to look at the flag of the peace-loving and un-corrupt PA all the time and asked Mrs. D. to remove it, telling her that she had made her point very clearly. But she refused. And then this little group, hardly representative of anyone, decided to take (legal) action.

-

	28-05-2002 05:49									#67
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quote: So you wouldn't mind if Bush put a dozen of Israeli flags in his ranch in texas, so that they will be easily seen?

If such a thing ever happened, it would be a political disaster both for Bush and the Israelis, so I would laugh my ass out.

	28-05-2002 05:49									#68
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quote: Again, I repeat, free speech applies to citizens. When you're in office you have responsability towards the country. I don't think that it is right for a member of the executive or judicial branch, to publicize his personal positions. His job is to present state position, and not be a private person.

And like I said, why don't you move to a Fascist state. It wasn't a troll, it was my belief.

When you start saying crap like officials don't have free speech that citizens have, then you are moving towards fascism, no ifs ands or buts. Officials are citizens too.

And btw, their 'job' isn't 24/7, they have time being a private citizen, and their rights should be protected, not trampled upon.

	28-05-2002 05:50									#69
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quote: Originally posted by axi The french make a profession out of being rude. This reminds me of when the American ambassador said to the Greek PM: "**** your parliament! **** your constitution!". I guess that he too was speaking personally then, right?

I don't know and I don't care. I think that he had no right to say that, while in position.

quote: There is a difference though. Insulting someone is an act punisheable by law, if the victim presses charges. Also in that case, breaking some laws are a good reason to lose an office (like f.e. a lawyer will lose his permit if he commits a felony). But displaying a flag is not an insult to anybody.

Suppose Bush says that he really likes Turks and as a private person does not like greeks or greece.

I also understand americans when they are angry that people in the white house, express personal pro-israeli and pro-zionist views.


Sikander, I'm sure that you won't mind. But many pro-palestinians would.

	28-05-2002 05:54									#70
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quote: And like I said, why don't you move to a Fascist state. It wasn't a troll, it was my belief.

Do you have any idea how that is related to a fascist state?

If anything, when observing purity of office, you are closer to true democracy.

quote: When you start saying crap like officials don't have free speech that citizens have, then you are moving towards fascism, no ifs ands or buts. Officials are citizens too.

Yes they are. They are citizens with responsibility.

quote: And btw, their 'job' isn't 24/7, they have time being a private citizen, and their rights should be protected, not trampled upon.

Obviously, and they can observe their right in their privacy.

However, imagine if Bush publicises an article about how he thinks that Arafat is a liar? or Sharon is a butcher? He can't and you know that. You can however.

	28-05-2002 05:55									#71
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quote: I don't know and I don't care. I think that he had no right to say that, while in position

What ever happened to free speech for all citizens?

quote: Suppose Bush says that he really likes Turks and as a private person does not like greeks or greece.

So? And yes, you can also extend it to Bush saying he likes Indians and doesn't like Pakistanis as a private person.

See below...

quote: Sikander, I'm sure that you won't mind. But many pro-palestinians would.

So what?! Then they can vote him out the next election. That is what democracy is, you know.

	28-05-2002 05:58									#72
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quote: I don't know and I don't care.

That statement had followed the rejection of an American plan to solve the Cyprus problem in 1964, in which we had to cede an island to Turkey as a tradeoff. The proposal was rejected on the grounds that the constitution forbids the govt and the parliament to give away national territory.

So now you know.

	28-05-2002 05:58									#73
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quote: Do you have any idea how that is related to a fascist state?

Yes, you are slowly taking away rights of people.

quote: Yes they are. They are citizens with responsibility.

What the Hell does that mean? Yes they have some responsibility to do their work. That doesn't mean that they hand over their rights. They can do their jobs responsibily and believe what they want to believe. Free speech for EVERYONE (especially officials) is essential to a democracy.

quote: However, imagine if Bush publicises an article about how he thinks that Arafat is a liar? or Sharon is a butcher? He can't and you know that. You can however.

Who says he can't?! He can, but that would be bad for diplomacy. In the past, US officials have written disparaging things about other countries' leaders in newspapers, etc.

	28-05-2002 05:58									#74
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quote: Then let them disagree. A politicians personal beliefs are his personal beliefs.

And while he is in executive office, he should keep them to his private company.

quote: BULLSHIT! You know nothing about America. A Congressman or Senator promotes and represents not only the interests of the section of the country he is from, but also the interests of America.

Obviously, but he can represent the interests of America from the p.o.v. of his interest group.
A member of the executive branch however, does not represent himself, or his minority group, but the whole state.

And don't lecture me about America, ok?

I know it's not always observed, and I don't think it's right.

quote: Yet if a politician has a personal liking towards Israel... that makes him look at Israel more favoribly, and sees backing Israel as in the state's interest. Sorry, you can't seperate them.

You can't always achieve it, but I think that one has to strive to it.

Do you like your president to make decisions based on what he thinks will be better for America or what will be better for Israel?

quote: There is not and has never been 'purity of office'.

There should be.

	28-05-2002 06:00									#75
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quote: Originally posted by axi If such a thing ever happened, it would be a political disaster both for Bush and the Israelis, so I would laugh my ass out.

That's the point.

This is not a thing which should happen.

	28-05-2002 06:02									#76
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quote: And while he is in executive office, he should keep them to his private company

Why? Why are his rights taken away if he is in executive office?

quote: Obviously, but he can represent the interests of America from the p.o.v. of his interest group. A member of the executive branch however, does not represent himself, or his minority group, but the whole state.

Um... and the President can represent American from the p.o.v. of HIS interest group.

Senior Senators (at the very least) represent America just as much as some cabinet officials.

quote: And don't lecture me about America, ok?

Seeing as you know nothing about it, I think I will continue to do so.

quote: Do you like your president to make decisions based on what he thinks will be better for America or what will be better for Israel?

But what he thinks is best for America is based on his personal beliefs. DUH! This is why we have checks and balances in the US.

quote: There should be.

No there shouldn't. People should have all the rights that anyone else has, no matter what they do.

	28-05-2002 06:03									#77
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quote: That's the point. This is not a thing which should happen.

That's called what is best for diplomacy, Siro .

It is based on interest. If the President think it is the best interest to critique one party, then he'll do that.... putting his personal beliefs right in there.

	28-05-2002 06:04									#78
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quote: What ever happened to free speech for all citizens?

Again, how good will it be if Bush suddenly says that all dem democrats are dirty communists?

He can think that - he can't say that.

quote: So? And yes, you can also extend it to Bush saying he likes Indians and doesn't like Pakistanis as a private person.

Which is yet another thing which he shouldn't say.

quote: So what?! Then they can vote him out the next election. That is what democracy is, you know.

As a representative of america, he should try to avoid projecting his private opinions, especially if they might interfere with his work.

	28-05-2002 06:07									#79
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quote: Again, how good will it be if Bush suddenly says that all dem democrats are dirty communists? He can think that - he can't say that.

Why can't he say that? Basically in the past, you've had situations where the President basically DID say that about the opposition.

quote: Which is yet another thing which he shouldn't say.

If he thinks that would best to say that, why not?

quote: As a representative of america, he should try to avoid projecting his private opinions, especially if they might interfere with his work.

Private opinions are ALWAYS projected. In every decision, no matter how minor or major, private opinions are HUGE. There is absolutely NO decision that is made outside of private opinion. Only a robot could prevent private opinions from getting involved.

	28-05-2002 06:10									#80
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quote: Yes, you are slowly taking away rights of people.

I'd suggest you read about fascism and see that it's not simply a code word meaning "bad, anti-democracy".

You think that democracy means lack of any regulations and absolute freedom.

I disagree.

In any case, neither you, nor america has an exclusive right over democracy.

Also, tell me, you accuse me and Israel of fascism. Was USA a fascist state for the first couple of hundred years?

After all, it limited women and minorities.

	28-05-2002 06:15									#81
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quote: Private opinions are ALWAYS projected. In every decision, no matter how minor or major, private opinions are HUGE. There is absolutely NO decision that is made outside of private opinion. Only a robot could prevent private opinions from getting involved.

Obviously.

But it should be made sure that private opinions interefere as less in the job as possible.

quote: If the President think it is the best interest to critique one party, then he'll do that.... putting his personal beliefs right in there.

If the president thinks it is the best interest of america to critque one party, then he should do that.

If the president has a personal grudge against one side, while obviously it will affect his decision, it is not the optimal situation, and obviously it shouldn't be his sole criteria for actions.

How would you feel if Clinton ordered more money to Israel, not because he sees how it protects american interest of having an ally in the ME, but rather because he has israeli friends, or say, has something to profit from it?

	28-05-2002 06:16									#82
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quote: In any case, neither you, nor america has an exclusive right over democracy.

I like that statement. Really, I do.

quote: Was USA a fascist state for the first couple of hundred years? After all, it limited women and minorities.

It was and it still is after the first couple of hundred years.
It's called capitalism. Fascism is a form of capitalism.

	28-05-2002 06:18									#83
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Fascism is also very pro state (or nation), and by limiting the speech of executive officials, you are saying you want no one in the cabinet to speak against the leader's ideas. By decreasing critiques of your policy, it is pro-state and pro-unity (another Fascist goal). So, ya your idea is Fascist.

And the USA, after 1800, never had laws restricting officials' freedom of speech. From 1796-1800 it did, and then it was sliding into Fascism... only the election of Jefferson saved it.

And btw, American & Europe do have the right to define democracy. Saying officials can't speak their mind is inherantly undemocratic.

And yes, Israel has learned the lessons of Fascism in WW2 very poorly. It is the most Fascist "democracy" in the world.

	28-05-2002 06:21									#84
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quote: How would you feel if Clinton ordered more money to Israel, not because he sees how it protects american interest of having an ally in the ME, but rather because he has israeli friends, or say, has something to profit from it?

Duh, obviously he WOULD think it protects American interests. Clinton, throughout his entire administration, thought that being friendly to Israel was in America's interest.

And he can't order more money to Israel... Congress controls money.

quote: It's called capitalism. Fascism is a form of capitalism.

Not this crap again.

	28-05-2002 06:24									#85
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heheheee!!

	28-05-2002 06:24									#86
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Damn troll you!

	28-05-2002 08:04									#87
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"But it should be made sure that private opinions interefere as less in the job as possible."

The president is a particularly poor example, considering that we elect presidents in large part to make decisions based on their private opinions.

I don't think displaying the flag was particularly smart. It just doesn't help the situation, just as the congress having an Israel love-fest doesn't help the situation.

But insulting people should never be against the law, so if I were Dusie, I'd tell the Jewish group to sod off. Who cares if it's offensive?

	28-05-2002 09:20									#88
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Huh... An organization supporting a fascist state is outraged over an expression of free speech. I'm baffled...

	28-05-2002 10:35									#89
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Of course everyone has the right to free speech. However, if a government organ displays a symbol offensive to a minority group in the US, I gave two examples before, we listen and act. The Stars and Bars is being taken down all across the South at the request of African Americans. Indian team names are being removed from California public schools because they offend Native Americans.

What is wrong with that? Is this truly a denial of free speech?

It is obvious the Dutch have a long way to go in sensitivity training.

	28-05-2002 11:10									#90
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quote: Originally posted by Sirotnikov quote: Private opinions are ALWAYS projected. In every decision, no matter how minor or major, private opinions are HUGE. There is absolutely NO decision that is made outside of private opinion. Only a robot could prevent private opinions from getting involved. Obviously. But it should be made sure that private opinions interefere as less in the job as possible.

I did not think I would be interested enough with this thread's topic to participate. But let me say the following:

1) I support Israel -- but please, Siro, at least obtain basic information about how the United States government operates.

Do you not think that our political debates during election times are about anything BUT the politicians' opinions??

You can bet your ass that President Bush and his Republicans will continue to pursue national policies (for good or ill), according to his opinions and other Republicans' opinions.


2) This government official and his wife -- they had every right to display that Palestinian flag on their home. Even if it was inappropriate to do so, it was perfectly legal to do so.




There are only two flags so far, that I really detest being displayed for almost any purpose: the Nazi flag, and the American Confederate flag.
And any flag that represents a rogue regime/nation that supports terrorism, for that matter.

BUT, displaying even these flags are perfectly legal.