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MrFun is offline MrFun
King
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Nov 2000
time: 23:19
  Old Post 29-05-2002 05:38 Visit MrFun's homepage!
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quote:
Originally posted by Ignorance
If homosexuality really is in genes, it should be gone in few generations anyway.
The social pressure has been mostly lifted, leaving gay people very unlikely to spread their genes to any descendants.

Unless of course someone decides it would be neat to allow gay-couples to artificially reproduce, at which point we can say goodbye to natural selection.


You picked out the perfect Apolyton member name for yourself.

Dr Strangelove is offline Dr Strangelove
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  Old Post 29-05-2002 05:49
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quote:
Originally posted by Ignorance
If homosexuality really is in genes, it should be gone in few generations anyway.
The social pressure has been mostly lifted, leaving gay people very unlikely to spread their genes to any descendants.

Unless of course someone decides it would be neat to allow gay-couples to artificially reproduce, at which point we can say goodbye to natural selection.


Sorry, if the trait is recessive or even dominant with reduced penetrance it doesn't work that way. If the trait is recessive then those carrying one gene will continue to pass the gene on to the next generation. Likewise if the gene has relatively low pentrance ( no pun intended ) those in whom the gene is not expressed will pass it on.

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Sep 2000
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  Old Post 29-05-2002 06:02
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It might not be hereditary, it could be caused by something that happens during pregnancy.

In any case, its clear that its not a choice.

MrFun is offline MrFun
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  Old Post 29-05-2002 06:04 Visit MrFun's homepage!
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It's fascinating though --- with all the advances in science, we yet, do not know how we become heterosexual, homosexual, or bisexual.

Or, as I and others have stated in the past, maybe we're all fundamentally bisexual with a predominance of heterosexuality or homosexuality????

Ignorance is offline Ignorance
Chieftain
Tampereen betonihelvetti
Dec 2001
time: 07:19
  Old Post 29-05-2002 06:08
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quote:
Originally posted by Dr Strangelove
Sorry, if the trait is recessive or even dominant with reduced penetrance it doesn't work that way. If the trait is recessive then those carrying one gene will continue to pass the gene on to the next generation. Likewise if the gene has relatively low pentrance ( no pun intended ) those in whom the gene is not expressed will pass it on.


Well, it could be dominant. And if nobody carrying it would breed, it would theoretically disappear in just one generation.

Anyway, I don't think its in genes.

Firelad is offline Firelad
Settler
Haifa, Israel.
May 2002
time: 07:19
  Old Post 29-05-2002 06:11
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Well, in fact, MrFun, there's considerable evindence to that effect. In fact, I'm just in the process of re-reading Our Kind by Marvin Harris, and he says just that, referring the reader to 64% of the world's cultures and to the closest ape to ourselves, the Pygmy Chimp, who is bisexual and has sex with all the other Pygmy Chimps all day, be they male or female.

faded glory is offline faded glory
King
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Jan 2001
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  Old Post 29-05-2002 06:12
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Lol ignorance. I have to think that is a DL

TCO is offline TCO
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Richmond, VA
Jan 1970
time: 00:19
  Old Post 29-05-2002 08:16
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quote:
Originally posted by Dr Strangelove


Sorry, if the trait is recessive or even dominant with reduced penetrance it doesn't work that way. If the trait is recessive then those carrying one gene will continue to pass the gene on to the next generation. Likewise if the gene has relatively low pentrance ( no pun intended ) those in whom the gene is not expressed will pass it on.


I know that this issue is "loaded" politically, but what does the scientific literature say about causes of homosexuality? Surely there has been some work on this topic. At one time, it was a condition in the DSM, no?

Tuberski is offline Tuberski
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Feb 2002
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  Old Post 29-05-2002 08:20 Visit Tuberski's homepage!
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quote:
Originally posted by GP


I know that this issue is "loaded" politically, but what does the scientific literature say about causes of homosexuality? Surely there has been some work on this topic. At one time, it was a condition in the DSM, no?


Ithought it was a condition of the PNS........







think about it.....

blackice is offline blackice
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  Old Post 29-05-2002 09:33 Visit blackice's homepage!
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quote:
I know that this issue is "loaded" politically, but what does the scientific literature say about causes of homosexuality? Surely there has been some work on this topic. At one time, it was a condition in the DSM, no?


Actually yes start here:


http://www.nypl.org/research/chss/g...guides/gay.html

TCO is offline TCO
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Jan 1970
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  Old Post 29-05-2002 09:49
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Ice, I looked in there. Couldn't find much scientific stuff. Was mostly the Gay Experience.

blackice is offline blackice
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  Old Post 29-05-2002 09:56 Visit blackice's homepage!
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Legal, Social, And Behavioral Sciences
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Bayer, Ronald. Homosexuality and American Psychiatry: The Politics of Diagnosis. New York: Basic Books, 1981. JLD 81-1600 and MSS DIV\IGIC\NONF\B24. A narrative of the events leading to the American Psychiatric Association's decision to remove "homosexuality" from its mental diseases list.
Bell, Alan P. Homosexualities: A Study of Diversity Among Men and Women. New York: Simon and Schuster, 1978. JLE 79-286. The result of a survey of the San Francisco Bay Area begun in the 1960's by the Institute for Sex Research, this study remains important and especially relevant since the advent of AIDS.

Berger, Raymond M. Gay and Gray: the Older Homosexual Man. Urbana: University of Illinois Press, 1982. JLE 82-1370 and MSS DIV\IGIC\NONF\B42. A valuable psycho-sociological examination of aging based upon questionnaires of 112 gay men. Contains lengthy profiles of six interview respondents. A pre-AIDS study.

Beyond Tolerance: Gays, Lesbians, and Bisexuals on Campus, edited by Nancy J. Evans and Vernon A. Wall. Alexandria, VA: American College Personnel Association, 1991. JFE 92-9996. Gay, lesbian, and bisexual issues on campus. The last chapter serves as a resource guide to books, films, periodicals, and organizations.

Califia, Pat. Sapphistry: The Book of Lesbian Sexuality. Tallahassee, FL: Naiad Press, 1988. (S) JLD 90-501. Includes a resource list, an index, and information on lesbians and AIDS.

Camp Grounds: Style and Homosexuality, edited by David Bergman. Amherst: University of Massachusetts Press, 1993. JFE 94-1287. Essays on various aspects of "camp."

Cavin, Susan. Lesbian Origins. San Francisco: Ism Press, 1985. JFD 90-10828. A lesbian challenge to the heterosexism inherent in the social sciences. Glossary, notes, statistical tables, and bibliography.

Comstock, Gary D. Violence Against Lesbians and Gay Men. New York: Columbia University Press, 1991. JBE 91-1453. Contains copious notes and a selected bibliography.

Counseling Gay Men and Lesbians: Journey to the End of the Rainbow, edited by Sari H. Dworkin and Fernando J. Gutierrez. Alexandria, VA: American Association for Counseling and Development, 1992. JFE 92-10311.

Fairchild, Betty. Now That You Know: What Every Parent Should Know About Homosexuality. Updated ed. San Diego: Harcourt Brace Jovanovich, 1989. JFD 92-12292. This edition includes a discussion on AIDS and the family.

Forms of Desire: Sexual Orientation and the Social Constructionist Controversy, edited by Edward Stein. New York: Garland, 1990. JLD 90-2318. Essays which go beyond the basic debate concerning essentialism versus social constructionism.

Gay Culture in America: Essays from the Field, edited by Gilbert Herdt. Boston: Beacon Press, 1992. JFE 92-2867. This collection of socio-anthropological essays neatly complements the pre-AIDS work edited by Martin Levine: Gay Men: the Sociology of Male Homosexuality (JLD 84-72).

Grey, Antony. Quest for Justice: Towards Homosexual Emancipation. London: Sinclair-Stevenson, 1992. JFE 92-9161. Homosexual law reform in Great Britain in the 1950's and 1960's. Good index, appendices, and bibliography.

Gross, Larry P. Contested Closets: the Politics and Ethics of Outing. Minneapolis: University of Minnesota Press, 1993. JFE 93-13329. Includes a selection of full-text newspaper and periodical articles on outing.

Hanscombe, Gillian E. Rocking the Cradle: Lesbian Mothers: A Challenge in Family Living. Boston: Alyson Publications, 1982. JLD 84-194.

Hunter, Nan D. The Rights of Lesbians and Gay Men: the Basic ACLU Guide to a Gay Person's Rights. Carbondale, IL: Southern Illinois Press, 1992. JFC 92-3158.

Kitzinger, Celia. The Social Construction of Lesbianism. London and Newbury Park, CA: Sage Publications, 1987. JFD 91-4145. New ways of looking at the study of lesbianism within the social sciences.

Lambda Gray: A Practical, Emotional, and Spiritual Guide for Gays and Lesbians Who Are Growing Older, edited by Jeanne Adleman. North Hollywood, CA: Newcastle Pub., 1993. JFD 93-14721. Aging and self-actualization as seen through the eyes of lesbians and gay men. Includes a useful chapter on resources. No index.

Lesbian Psychologies: Explorations and Challenges. Urbana: University of Illinois Press, 1987. JLE 87-3062. Essays by several authors on lesbian identity, relationships, family, therapies, and community.

Lewes, Kenneth. The Psychoanalytic Theory of Male Homosexuality. New York: Simon and Schuster, 1988. JFE 92-3930. The theory historically examined from Freud to the early 1980's.

Long Time Passing: Lives of Older Lesbians, edited by Marcy Adelman. Boston: Alyson Publications, 1986. JLD 87-3331. Personal accounts by aging lesbians; lists resources for health and legal assistance.

McDonald, Helen B. Homosexuality: a Practical Guide to Counseling Lesbians, Gay Men, and Their Families. New York: Continuum, 1990. JFD 90-10907. Also discusses strategies for aiding special needs groups within the lesbian and gay communities.

Mohr, Richard D. Gays/Justice: a Study of Ethics, Society, and Law. New York: Columbia University Press, 1988. JFE 91-7489.

Out of the Closets: Voices of Gay Liberation, edited by Karla Jay and Allen Young. 2nd ed. New York: New York University Press, 1992. JFD 92-15910. A reprint (with added foreword by John D'Emilio) of the classic gay liberation collection first published in 1972.

"Queer Theory: Lesbian and Gay Sexualities," edited by Teresa de Lauretis, published as the summer, 1991, issue of Differences: A Journal of Feminist Cultural Studies. JFL 91-290.

Ritualized Homosexuality in Melanesia, edited by Gilbert Herdt. Berkeley: University of California Press, 1984. JFE 84-3901. Distinguished anthropologists contribute essays covering aspects of this practice among a wide cross-section of Melanesian cultures. Extensive bibliography and index.

Samar, Vincent J. The Right to Privacy: Gays, Lesbians, and the Constitution. Philadelphia: Temple University Press, 1991. JFD 91-8758.

Signorile, Michelangelo. Queer in America: Sex, the Media, and the Closets of Power. New York: Random House, 1993. JFE 93- 6819.

Tatchell, Peter. Europe in the Pink: Lesbian and Gay Equality in the New Europe. London: GMP, 1992. JFD 92-9217. A major revision and expansion of the author's Out in Europe. Contains status reports on individual countries, including those in Eastern Europe. Current through 1991.

Whitam, Frederick L. Male Homosexuality in Four Societies: Brazil, Guatemala, the Philippines, and the United States. New York: Praeger, 1986. JLE 86-1825. A cross-cultural study which attempts to exhibit common elements in the development of a homosexual personality regardless of the cultural context. An insightful work although cross-gender patterns seem overemphasized. Bibliography and index.

Williams, Walter. The Spirit and the Flesh: Sexual Diversity in American Indian Culture. Boston: Beacon Press, 1992. HBC 92-17606. An exploration of the character and tradition of the berdache.

Woods, James D. The Corporate Closet: The Professional Lives of Gay Men in America. New York: Free Press, 1993. JBE 94-412.

Boris Godunov is offline Boris Godunov
King
Portland, OR
Aug 2001
time: 00:19
  Old Post 29-05-2002 09:58
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If you want, I can direct you to plenty of Web sites that focus on lots of gay experiences. With video and sound, too.

blackice is offline blackice
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  Old Post 29-05-2002 09:59 Visit blackice's homepage!
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http://www.mind.org.uk/information/...ntal_Health.asp

blackice is offline blackice
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Sep 2000
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  Old Post 29-05-2002 10:07 Visit blackice's homepage!
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http://www.academicarmageddon.co.uk/library/kirk.htm

That's fun

H Tower is offline H Tower
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Jul 2001
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  Old Post 29-05-2002 10:40
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you got that off a newsgroup? so basically just about anyone with a computer could type up that crap and post it, and none of it would be real. didn't you read the thread that contained the onion article about the incredible error that was discovered on a brady bunch fan site?

blackice is offline blackice
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  Old Post 29-05-2002 10:47 Visit blackice's homepage!
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TCO is offline TCO
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  Old Post 29-05-2002 11:20
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ice, I had looked at that exact page. I'm looking for peer-reviewed sicence. Not essays about somebodies experience. (There might be something in the first 2 refs. would have to check them. but overall pretty thin...)

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Jan 1970
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  Old Post 29-05-2002 11:26
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Has anybody ever done a twin study on homosexuality?

blackice is offline blackice
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  Old Post 29-05-2002 11:27 Visit blackice's homepage!
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Well then direct us to some substance I am up for some reading. I have read most of the above information, what do you have?

Asher is offline Asher
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  Old Post 29-05-2002 11:29 Visit Asher's homepage!
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The answer to this thread title is no, and obviously anyone who could make such a statement has never been to San Francisco, Austin, or Toronto.

Why do we have to research homosexuality? What's the point?

It's there, it doesn't hurt anyone, just let it be. Don't fund research into why it exists, spend that money curing cancer or something.

MrFun is offline MrFun
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  Old Post 29-05-2002 11:31 Visit MrFun's homepage!
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quote:
Originally posted by GP
Has anybody ever done a twin study on homosexuality?


When I used to have a stronger belief in the genetic theory, I did my own research report on sexual orientation development.
Here is part of my report on twin studies:


"Another different theory developed in the 1980s was formulated by Richard Pillard and James Weinrich. They wanted to determine if homosexuality clustered in families (LeVay, 174-177). Are siblings of gays or lesbians more likely themselves to be gay or lesbian than siblings of heterosexuals? From one study, it was found that among brothers of heterosexual men, about 4% were homosexuals or bisexual. Among brothers of gay men, about 22% were homosexual or bisexual. From four separate studies, it was found that among the sisters of heterosexual women, 0% to 11% were lesbian or bisexual. With sisters of lesbians, 5% to 25% were lesbian or bisexual.

However, the observation that homosexuality is familial is not in itself proof of genetic influence on sexual orientation since there could be many environmental mechanics involved. Pillard and others performed studies on twins. These studies came up with concordance rates for homosexuality in monozygotic2 twins that are much higher than in dizygotic3 twins. In one study, 52% of monozygotic co-twins of gay men were themselves gay, while only 22% of dizygotic twins were gay. For lesbians about 48% for monozygotic siblings and only 16% for dizygotic siblings. To account for the possibility of gay or lesbian co-twins who would readily participate in these studies, Michael Bailey and his colleagues set a broad range between 30% and 75% for both men and women who would be gay or lesbian. Another weakness with these studies is that one has to consider non-genetic factors influencing sexual orientation. However, these studies offer substantial evidence that there is genetic influence."
END OF MRFUN'S REPORT

This is only a brief touch on this -- whole books have been written on this one particular theory, of course.
But now, I no longer have as strong a belief in the genetic theory anymore.

MrFun is offline MrFun
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  Old Post 29-05-2002 11:33 Visit MrFun's homepage!
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quote:
Originally posted by Asher
The answer to this thread title is no, and obviously anyone who could make such a statement has never been to San Francisco, Austin, or Toronto.

Why do we have to research homosexuality? What's the point?

It's there, it doesn't hurt anyone, just let it be. Don't fund research into why it exists, spend that money curing cancer or something.


Knowlege is power -- once heterosexuals understand how they become straight, and when we understand how others become gay or bisexual, it could trigger even more cultural change in the direction of seeing all sexual orientations as legitimate.

Asher is offline Asher
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  Old Post 29-05-2002 11:36 Visit Asher's homepage!
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quote:
Originally posted by MrFun
Knowlege is power -- once heterosexuals understand how they become straight, and when we understand how others become gay or bisexual, it could trigger even more cultural change in the direction of seeing all sexual orientations as legitimate.

Errrr...yeah, I don't believe that.

Homophobes will be homophobes regardless of what the medical and scientific community says.

All this "where does homosexuality come from" seems like a total and complete waste of time and money to me. Nobody should care, actually.

MrFun is offline MrFun
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  Old Post 29-05-2002 11:40 Visit MrFun's homepage!
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Asher -- after taking Argumentation and Debate course, I learn that argumentation is a legitimate way in an attempt to change people's viewpoints and opinions through information and persuasion.

It's possible to change people's viewpoints.


GP: Did you get the information that I posted in response to your request? That is probably too brief -- you'll probably want to expand your inquiry from there.

TCO is offline TCO
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  Old Post 29-05-2002 11:42
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mind.org link was useless. More fluff not relevant to my question.

academic link not directly relevant but has some tangential relevance. REading through it now.

Would love to get doc strange's take on it.

Asher is offline Asher
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  Old Post 29-05-2002 11:43 Visit Asher's homepage!
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quote:
Originally posted by MrFun
Asher -- after taking Argumentation and Debate course, I learn that argumentation is a legitimate way in an attempt to change people's viewpoints and opinions through information and persuasion.

It's possible to change people's viewpoints.

It would be if everyone in society was rational and debating about it accordingly.

But society's not like that. Society has intolerant hicks who would call any study claiming homosexuality is normal to be politically correct propaganda, and would only use the information of the "cause" of homosexuality as part of a campaign to "cure" people of their homosexuality.

It's useless information that won't change a thing and can do more harm than good, as far as I'm concerned.

MrFun is offline MrFun
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  Old Post 29-05-2002 11:44 Visit MrFun's homepage!
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quote:
Originally posted by GP
mind.org link was useless. More fluff not relevant to my question.

academic link not directly relevant but has some tangential relevance. REading through it now.

Would love to get doc strange's take on it.


Reading through what?? What I provided??

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  Old Post 29-05-2002 11:47
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quote:
Originally posted by blackice
Well then direct us to some substance I am up for some reading. I have read most of the above information, what do you have?


I wan't beiong rhetorical. Was an honest question. I would need to go to a library and do a lit search.

MrFun is offline MrFun
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you're welcome, GP

 
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