29-05-2002 11:54									#61
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quote: Originally posted by MrFun When I used to have a stronger belief in the genetic theory, I did my own research report on sexual orientation development. Here is part of my report on twin studies: "Another different theory developed in the 1980s was formulated by Richard Pillard and James Weinrich. They wanted to determine if homosexuality clustered in families (LeVay, 174-177). Are siblings of gays or lesbians more likely themselves to be gay or lesbian than siblings of heterosexuals? From one study, it was found that among brothers of heterosexual men, about 4% were homosexuals or bisexual. Among brothers of gay men, about 22% were homosexual or bisexual. From four separate studies, it was found that among the sisters of heterosexual women, 0% to 11% were lesbian or bisexual. With sisters of lesbians, 5% to 25% were lesbian or bisexual. However, the observation that homosexuality is familial is not in itself proof of genetic influence on sexual orientation since there could be many environmental mechanics involved. Pillard and others performed studies on twins. These studies came up with concordance rates for homosexuality in monozygotic2 twins that are much higher than in dizygotic3 twins. In one study, 52% of monozygotic co-twins of gay men were themselves gay, while only 22% of dizygotic twins were gay. For lesbians about 48% for monozygotic siblings and only 16% for dizygotic siblings. To account for the possibility of gay or lesbian co-twins who would readily participate in these studies, Michael Bailey and his colleagues set a broad range between 30% and 75% for both men and women who would be gay or lesbian. Another weakness with these studies is that one has to consider non-genetic factors influencing sexual orientation. However, these studies offer substantial evidence that there is genetic influence." END OF MRFUN'S REPORT This is only a brief touch on this -- whole books have been written on this one particular theory, of course. But now, I no longer have as strong a belief in the genetic theory anymore.

This seems to be pretty good evidence of a genetic cause. )at least for some people) Would need to look at the numbers and the primary sources more...but at least based on your report, it looks genetic. (Oh...and I guess there was a caveat about self-selection. Would be interesting to look at that and see if it can be factored out.)

What made your beleif in genetic causation weaken?

	29-05-2002 11:56									#62
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I think this sums up a lot of what I have posted. Ok subject matter changes but the research content does not.

Certain subjects of research end up underfunded and simply not discovered. Why? As Asher puts it in all too common terms WHO CARES. Well in order to understand and to move on one has to care enough to understand. That means research....

	29-05-2002 11:56									#63
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quote: Originally posted by Asher The answer to this thread title is no, and obviously anyone who could make such a statement has never been to San Francisco, Austin, or Toronto. Why do we have to research homosexuality? What's the point? It's there, it doesn't hurt anyone, just let it be. Don't fund research into why it exists, spend that money curing cancer or something.

Asher,

I'm not going to strip any cancer centers of funding. I just want to konw what the work to date said. So sue me. I can be interested in whatever I want. Knowledge is power. If you want to see an ulterior motive in my wanting to know the science, I can see one in your wanting to hide the knowledge...

	29-05-2002 11:58									#64
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I wasn't talking about you personally, GP.

I'm just so ****ing sick of everyone arguing over what causes it.

IT'S NATURE!
No, it's NURTURE!
No, you're both wrong, it's NATURE AND NURTURE!

Oh the humanity, we'll never survive knowing what causes people to be who they are.

Where's the genetic research about what makes people more skilled at hockey than others?

Where's the research on musical talent?!

All of that crap is useless in the real world. And I really wish Canada would stop trying to fund bullshit research like that and put more money into curing diseases.

	29-05-2002 11:58									#65
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quote: Originally posted by MrFun you're welcome, GP

I didn't see your posts until now. don't get anxious. I'm reading tjhorugh a long article in one of ice's links.

	29-05-2002 12:00									#66
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quote: Originally posted by GP This seems to be pretty good evidence of a genetic cause. )at least for some people) Would need to look at the numbers and the primary sources more...but at least based on your report, it looks genetic. (Oh...and I guess there was a caveat about self-selection. Would be interesting to look at that and see if it can be factored out.) What made your beleif in genetic causation weaken?

The author is LeVay, and the title of the source cited is "Queer Science."

What caused my views to begin to change?
An intelligent discussion on Apolyton about the theory that all humans might be fundamentally bisexual, with a preponderance towards either heterosexuality, or homosexuality.
I have yet to get my ass in gear, and do some reading of my own, on this theory brought up here on Apolyton.

But it was intriguing when it was discussed.

	29-05-2002 12:01									#67
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Yes Asher it happens but understand that is but one part of humanity...

	29-05-2002 12:02									#68
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quote: Originally posted by Asher I wasn't talking about you personally, GP. I'm just so ****ing sick of everyone arguing over what causes it. IT'S NATURE! No, it's NURTURE! No, you're both wrong, it's NATURE AND NURTURE! Oh the humanity, we'll never survive knowing what causes people to be who they are. Where's the genetic research about what makes people more skilled at hockey than others? Where's the research on musical talent?!

OK, dude. I don't know why...but it just got me interested. I have a science background and I like reading good primary sicence articles.

I don't know about musical, hockey players but there has been some decent research on IQ heritiability and on economic talent variation and on selection processes (these are of course commercially relevant.) If you are a business and have to choose workers, you want to know how to pick the best ones most effectively.

	29-05-2002 12:04									#69
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Asher just needs to calm down.

	29-05-2002 12:06									#70
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Thanks, Fun. Sounds like you did some decent research there. Good job. Seriously.

Did you look at any of the promary sources? e.g. the paper by Pillard?

	29-05-2002 12:09									#71
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Mine was a basic, overview research paper on several different topics, so I did not go really in-depth with any one issue.

But here is my bibliography for my report:


Works Cited
LeVay, Simon. Queer Science. The MIT Press, 1996.
MacHover, June, Ph.D., McWhirter, P. David, M.D., Sanders, A. Stephanie, Ph.D.
Homosexuality/Heterosexuality – Concepts of Sexual Orientation. Vol. 2. Oxford University Press, 1990.

Strickland, Bonnie. “Research on Sexual Orientation and Human Development: A
Commentary.” Developmental Psychology. Vol. 31, no. 1. January, 1995. Pages 137-140.

Encyclopedia of Adult Development. Oryx Press, 1993. Pages 208-214.

Encyclopedia of Marriage and Family. Vol. 2. Simon & Schuster Macmillan, 1995.
Page 642.

Encyclopedia of Psychology. Vol. 7. Oxford University Press, 2000. Pages 260-262.

“Shades of Gay.” Newsweek 20 March 2000.

	29-05-2002 12:14									#72
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quote: Originally posted by MrFun Asher just needs to calm down.

I'm sorry I'm not as obsessed with sexuality as others here.

	29-05-2002 12:16									#73
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ok

	29-05-2002 12:17									#74
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Asher --- it was not meant as an insult -- it just seemed like you just needed to take a few deep breaths, and relax.

I like you here on Apolyton.

	29-05-2002 12:19									#75
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Beyond sexuality Asher human nature, forget single good for the big picture and join in the topic. It merges into humanity as a whole topic.

	29-05-2002 12:20									#76
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MrFun: Why?

Because I expressed my anger with how everyone needs to find out what causes the deviant behavior of homosexuals?

It's a crock, the only reason you see otherwise is because you've already clearly devoted time into researching it yourself.

	29-05-2002 12:21									#77
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I sure would like to know HOW I became gay -- it's fascinating, with the process of researching in just trying to find the best theory of sexual orientation development.

	29-05-2002 12:23									#78
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And in the end they're all theories anyway.

It's like arguing which spice girl is the sexiest -- and they're all fugly.

	29-05-2002 12:23									#79
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quote: Originally posted by Asher MrFun: Why? Because I expressed my anger with how everyone needs to find out what causes the deviant behavior of homosexuals? It's a crock, the only reason you see otherwise is because you've already clearly devoted time into researching it yourself.

You're bisexual -- you should know better than this.
Gay behavior is not deviant or abnormal for homosexuals or bisexuals.

It is normal for me to be gay.

	29-05-2002 12:24									#80
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quote: Originally posted by MrFun You're bisexual -- you should know better than this. Gay behavior is not deviant or abnormal for homosexuals or bisexuals. It is normal for me to be gay.

If it's not deviant and is normal why are you focusing your efforts onto researching why you are different?

Don't you see how that's an oxymoron?

	29-05-2002 12:32									#81
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I don't see an oxymoron in researching a part of humanity's identity.

Sexual orientation is part of humanity's identity, and therefore, something good or positive.

Researching something does not make that "something" negative or bad.

	29-05-2002 12:34									#82
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I don't see heterosexuals prowling around asking why they're straight.

Maybe you just want to confirm to yourself that you're okay?

	29-05-2002 12:38									#83
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quote: Originally posted by Asher I don't see heterosexuals prowling around asking why they're straight. Maybe you just want to confirm to yourself that you're okay?

You know that saying -- "ignorance is bliss."

If heterosexuals can gain the knowledge of how they become straight, I think that leads us to more enligthenment -- for the first time, we would finally know for certain how sexual orientation develops.

This research will benefit heterosexuals, homosexuals, and bisexuals.

Think of the advance we will make in sex education courses, once we know how a person's sexual orientation develops.

	29-05-2002 12:41									#84
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quote: Originally posted by MrFun You know that saying -- "ignorance is bliss." If heterosexuals can gain the knowledge of how they become straight, I think that leads us to more enligthenment -- for the first time, we would finally know for certain how sexual orientation develops. This research will benefit heterosexuals, homosexuals, and bisexuals. Think of the advance we will make in sex education courses, once we know how a person's sexual orientation develops.

I'm sorry, MrFun, but do you honestly think what studies say is going to change everyone's mind in society about homosexuality?

A more likely scenerio is we'll find a gene that causes or allows for homosexuality, and then in designer babies we'll isolate that gene so it's not possible so we can all have perfect heterosexual blond hair, blue eyed babies.

And then there's even the possibility of CURING homosexuality now that we know how it's caused. Isn't that an exciting possibility?

And you honestly think that this research will benefit people as a whole?

	29-05-2002 12:42									#85
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"ignorance is bliss."
And too much ignorance creates personal utopia...

I agree with you Mr. Fun. We need to drop the fear factor and understand humanity as a whole.

quote: "Asher primative is you too a tee." -- blackice

	29-05-2002 12:42									#86
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You cannot "understand" humanity -- anyone who pretends to do so is an arrogant ass who knows too little about humanity.

	29-05-2002 12:44									#87
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Well then let's stop now....

	29-05-2002 12:44									#88
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Please do.

	29-05-2002 12:46									#89
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quote: Originally posted by Asher I'm sorry, MrFun, but do you honestly think what studies say is going to change everyone's mind in society about homosexuality? A more likely scenerio is we'll find a gene that causes or allows for homosexuality, and then in designer babies we'll isolate that gene so it's not possible so we can all have perfect heterosexual blond hair, blue eyed babies. And then there's even the possibility of CURING homosexuality now that we know how it's caused. Isn't that an exciting possibility? And you honestly think that this research will benefit people as a whole?

That ignorance phrase I used was not targeted towards you -- it was to explain why most heterosexuals have not even considered how they became straight. Being straight is the norm, so they feel no need to research sexual orientation.

But in the science fields, that has changed.
And I'm hoping now, that there is no genetic cause for sexual orientation development.
I need to do more, expanded reading on other theories before I can re-decide what is a stronger theory.

If there does turn out to be some gene, however, I am hoping that ethical standards will prevent widespread abuse and misuse of this genetic knowledge.
And of course, new laws would be enacted and enforced.

The society is slowly moving towards more acceptance towards gays and bisexuals.

	29-05-2002 12:51									#90
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Okay, MrFun, you can keep delving into the depths to find out the root cause for homosexuality and bisexuality, meanwhile I'll take the path of "who ****ing cares" because I really wish people would stop caring about sexuality, and I think it's a step backwards for people to dwell on why they are different.

Which is also why I think Gay Pride parades are useless in this modern age.