31-05-2002 21:39									#61
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No problem about the quotes, it just confused me a little

quote: Originally posted by darthx86 I disagree... somewhat. While the diplomatic goal is already built in, the editing of units, GW, SW, etc. would be much more difficult for the AI to work around.

No it is not. I don't know exactly how the AI works, but speaking from my own AI programming experience (which was no game AI, BTW) I expect this to be a rule based, database driven AI. So; general concepts are hard coded, while specific parameters can be changed.

An example: the AI knows that it is best to counter defensive units with mobile units. It doesn't know the reason for it, it was hard coded by Soren to do it like this. However, when it has to pick which unit it uses to attack a defender, it does this based on changeable parameters. It will use knigths to attack spearmen over horseman, as knights have a far better chance of winning.

If, however, you edit the attack value of a horseman to be 8, while a knight still has 4, it will pick the horseman over a knight to attack. This example might seem unrealistic, but it shows that the AI is somewhat adaptable to the parameters of the current game.

quote: (Back to culture flip.) Since culture flip is confusing and (at best) random, human players can't plan on it. If human players can't plan for it, then neither can the AI.

You're not saying you don't plan on culture flipping, are you? I always plan my border cities to have a larger culture than normal, just to try to take an enemy city if possible, and to prevent them from deflecting. Further, all of my newly acquired cities are heavily garrisoned, to improve my chances of keeping them. Cities with wonders are even more heavily garrisoned, as the culture in those was far greater, and the risk is higher.
This is a kind of planning that I'm sure is also included in the AI, and it does not depend that much on parameters. Therefore, it is much more basic to the AI than editing attack values is.

Of course, a quick fix could be to change priorities: If culture flipping is disabled, building libraries in border cities is not more important than in in-land cities. However, this would unbalance the AI, it would not function as good as it does now. In order to do it right, you have to change the entire system, which takes nearly as long as designing it from scratch...

DeepO

	31-05-2002 21:48									#62
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quote: Originally posted by DeepO erhm... I was asking for knowing the formula, not asking to be able to change it.

This is the closest Firaxis has come to revealing the formula:

http://apolyton.net/forums/showthre...&threadid=39825

By the way, that's from January, so definitely pre-1.21f.

	31-05-2002 21:53									#63
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Thanks, Stuie. I knew that thread, but that has some hints in it, not a real formula. Besides, it seems like Dan was confused himself on the complexity, as it simply doesn't work out...

Oh where are the times where you got the exact formula for corruption / waste / scoring right in the civilopedia....

DeepO

	31-05-2002 21:59									#64
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Still, it helped me strategize for protecting against and agressively pursuing culture flips. I don't find the concept to be confusing or random, unlike darthx86. I can gauge with reasonable accuracy those cities which will be easy to flip, those which will be difficult, and those which are impossible. Likewise, I usually have a pretty good idea as to which of my cities are susceptible to a flip. Part of that is from Dan's post, part from many hours playing Civ3. Either way, I find it to be a lot less random than combat....

	31-05-2002 22:00									#65
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quote:

Originally posted by DeepO
I love culture flipping (just voicing my support), but I can understand people want to turn it off. However, wouldn't it be a solution if you just get an indication how likely it is that a certain city flips? E.g. if it is more than 50%, display a number saying 'flipping is possible', if it is 80% displaying 'flipping is imminent(sp?)'. That should mean you can still do something about it, or take precautions to not loose too many troops if it does.

Besides, is there an exact formula known for the flipping chance? I'd love to see it!

OK, I think I agree with this. How about one of those stupid advisors popping up with something inane like, "O great and all knowing one *grovel* the governor of city Flippinbach tells us that the populace is growing restless and is about to flip out. Better build a few bars, or better yet a library." ??

	31-05-2002 22:08									#66
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quote: Originally posted by Stuie Still, it helped me strategize for protecting against and agressively pursuing culture flips. I don't find the concept to be confusing or random, unlike darthx86. I can gauge with reasonable accuracy those cities which will be easy to flip, those which will be difficult, and those which are impossible. Likewise, I usually have a pretty good idea as to which of my cities are susceptible to a flip. Part of that is from Dan's post, part from many hours playing Civ3. Either way, I find it to be a lot less random than combat....

I totally agree. But still, an exact formula would be nice

Geekenstein, this was what I had in mind. But, if advisors start denouncing all my possibly flipping cities, I'll soon shut them up (provided there's an option for that). Maybe something less intrusive, in the same spirit.

DeepO

	01-06-2002 00:18									#67
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It's been brought up in a number of threads about culture flipping that there "has never been a historical example of a major culture flip"

I would just like to point out that a large number of Rome's aquisitions, especially in the east, came about as a result of culture flipping.

For example, Asia province, Bithnia and Cyrene were ALL "culture flips", the rulers of these kingdoms willed them to Rome because they felt that their people would benefit from being affiliated with Rome. Asia province in particular was the "milk cow" of the Roman republic.

I know that Pontus was a military aquisition, but I think that Cappadocia and Cilicia might also have been "flips". That's the equivelant of all of modern day Turkey, and it was one of the most economically powerfull parts of the ancient world.

Did the Seleucids actually fight Pompey for Syria, or did it roll over too? I'm pretty sure all those little guys like Oshroene simply rolled over for Rome without much of a fight.

Austin

	01-06-2002 00:28									#68
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Good points, Austin. Also reminds me of the many tales of ancient cities under siege that were betrayed by small groups in the city that had ties to the besiegers. They would unlock the gates and let the besiegers in, no battle necessary. Flip.

Then there are cases such as Hong Kong (a British possession) being handed over to China. Sure it was a pre-arranged deal, but still.... it flipped from England to China.

	01-06-2002 00:54									#69
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[retarded post]

Last edited by Miznia on 01-06-2002 at 01:40

	01-06-2002 01:03									#70
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quote: Originally posted by DeepO wouldn't it be a solution if you just get an indication how likely it is that a certain city flips? E.g. if it is more than 50%, display a number saying 'flipping is possible', if it is 80% displaying 'flipping is imminent(sp?)'. That should mean you can still do something about it, or take precautions to not loose too many troops if it does. Besides, is there an exact formula known for the flipping chance? I'd love to see it! DeepO

I'm fairly sure there IS an exact formula for city defection - Firaxis just didn't reveal it, which was a bad idea IMO. What I'd like to see (perhaps in the PTW expansion) is a defection info box in the city screen (similar to the pollution box) that shows the probability of a cultural flip within, say, the next ten turns.

EDIT: And Firaxis, please add the exact defection formula to the civilopedia.

	01-06-2002 01:15									#71
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quote: Originally posted by Miznia A compromise: Just let me ban cities from flipping TO me, and let me keep my score.

Aren't you always able to choose "We don't want XXX. Rebuff the rebels." when the military advisor pops up to tell you that so-and-so wants to join your empire?

	01-06-2002 01:20									#72
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Here is a post-1.21 comment by Soren about the formula. http://apolyton.net/forums/showthre...ghlight=culture

If I understood him correctly the formula works like this:

Chance of flip = ({[(# of forign nationals)+(# of square in radii under forign control)] * [2 if more culture in city by foriegn civ, otherwise 1] * [2 if in civil disorder, 1/2 if in WLTK day, otherwise one]} - {1 per garrisoning military unit}) * ({Foriegn civ total Culture} / {Your civ total culture}) / (Capitol distance factor {500 to 8000, average 2000})

I imagine this chance of flip is determined on a civ by civ basis, so if you are Egypt, and have a city with 2 persians in it, and two city radii squares under Greek control, there would be an equal chance of a flip to either, not a cumalative flip chance with a determination of who it goes to after. Could be wrong though.

Anyhow, the basic concept becomes you need 1 military unit to stop the flip for each forign national or controlled square, 2 if the other civ has ever produced more culture in that city than you.

As to the chance of a flip, with equal culture and equidistant capitols, it should be around .05% per uncountered national/square (1/2000). Of course, that varies greatly depending on your ratio of total culture and distance to capitols.

	01-06-2002 01:34									#73
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Thanks for the link, Fitz.

	01-06-2002 01:36									#74
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quote: Originally posted by darthx86 (Back to culture flip.) Since culture flip is confusing and (at best) random, human players can't plan on it. If human players can't plan for it, then neither can the AI. I agree that culture is an important part of the game, but it still has an impact without the culture flip (namely all diplomatic relations).

Combat is random. Everything in a game must be random, or you would know the outcome ahead of time. Culture Flipping isn't confusing either, because we know the general formulas that go along with it. In terms of what we know about it, flipping is much less "confusing" than diplomacy or espionage.

Human players can plan for it. Human players should plan around it. If by "plan" you mean "know the outcome beforehand," then I could say with equal correctness that combat in any Civ game ever can't be planned for.

As for the impact of culture, borders are important only with city culture, not national culture. In addition, your point about the AI's diplo relations merely strengthens the argument that when flipping is disabled the AI will continue to act as if it had not been.

quote: But back to my original point. I believe that the more options to customize a game, the better. Since the game is supposed to be fun, and since this version of Civ 3 is single player only, who cares if enabling an option unbalances the game? When the expansion pack comes out, we'll talk again.

There has to be a logical limit. You can't please everyone with a game, and you can't try to by making every feature in the game capable of being turned off. There is virtually no chance that Firaxis will spend time adding a toggle to remove a critical part of the game.

	01-06-2002 02:13									#75
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Fitz, thanks a lot for the link! Somehow, I missed that thread... And even if your formula isn't completely exact yet -- it is as exact as the given info allows, but the precise calculation of the capital disctance factor remains unknown -- I've put it on a post-it and stuck it to my monitor until I know it by heart. Great info!

DeepO

	01-06-2002 02:30									#76
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quote: Originally posted by DeepO An example: the AI knows that it is best to counter defensive units with mobile units. It doesn't know the reason for it, it was hard coded by Soren to do it like this. However, when it has to pick which unit it uses to attack a defender, it does this based on changeable parameters. It will use knigths to attack spearmen over horseman, as knights have a far better chance of winning.

The AIs' primary objective is acquiring land, and this runs counter to preparing for culture flipping. You've seen it - how often has an AI dropped off a settler and one (ONE!) defender on the only square on the coast that is not within your culture border?

quote: You're not saying you don't plan on culture flipping, are you? I always plan my border cities to have a larger culture than normal, just to try to take an enemy city if possible, and to prevent them from deflecting. Further, all of my newly acquired cities are heavily garrisoned, to improve my chances of keeping them. Cities with wonders are even more heavily garrisoned, as the culture in those was far greater, and the risk is higher. This is a kind of planning that I'm sure is also included in the AI, and it does not depend that much on parameters. Therefore, it is much more basic to the AI than editing attack values is.

Yes, I understand and plan for culture flipping, and I'm a little annoyed at the inferences by subsequent posts that I don't understand how it works... Even on huge maps, I tend to keep my civ to around 30 cities or fewer in a contiguous pattern (usually as a Republic).

Now, to get back to my original point: Civ 3 was released to be fun - it's a game. The reason it came with an editor is to allow players to tailor it better to their tastes. Some people like the challenges provided out of the box, while others want to tweak it to match their style of play. To this end, who cares if it unbalances the AI? If that's how they want to play it, then why stop them?

(PS: I actually like the idea of the culture flip. I'm about to start a new game with the 1.21f, and if it works as well as my current one, I'll be very happy.)

Edit: clarity

	01-06-2002 02:39									#77
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Well, the capitol factor can probably be estimated. If ranged from 1/4 to 4x the average number (2000), and we can assume 2000 to be equidistant.

So, we can estimate 1 of three ways:

1) we can assume there is a 1/4 and 4x cap on the number. Take the ratio of the distance of your capitol to the distance to their captitol (specifically {your distance/their distance}) and multiply that by 2000, then apply the cap if necessary (500 or 8000).

2) assume that the formula for capitols is graded to the map size, so that if you were at the maximum distance and they were at the minimum, it would = 500, and vise versa it would = 8000. This may or may not be the case, and is certainly the hardest to figure.

3) Play it safe for losing flips (but not gaining) and use method 1 only if you are standing to gain the city. If you stand to lose the city, start with a base 2000, increase by considerably less than the ratio if you are closer, and decrease by more if you are further (basically using method 1 for further, and 2 for closer).

Regardless, in an attempt to make clear all those brackets, and make sure you multiply etc the right numbers, here is a algabraeic formula:

{[(N + S)*C*H] - T}*R/D

N = number of foreign nationals
S = number of 21 city squares under foriegn control
C = City Culture factor, 2 if forign civ has generated more culture in this city, otherwise 1
H = Happiness factor, 2 for disorder, 1/2 for WLTK day, otherwise 1
T= number of garrisoning troops
R= national cultures ratio (their total culture divided by your total culture)
D= Capitol distance factor (500 to 8000, 2000 average). Lower if they are closer, higher if you are.

BACK ON TOPIC: On the issue of making flips an option, I certainly think it should be made optional in the editor or start screens, provided it can be done relatively easily (ie 2-3 days worth of coding changes). The more options the better. And scores should be left the same.

In fact, I find that culture flipping increases my militaryness and inhumaneness when playing the game (same with resource dissapearance). If my city flips, you can bet I take it back. If a city I just conquered flips back, next round I raze it, and since I razed one city, I figure that civ is a write off as far as relations go and raze them off the map. I do try and keep cities when possible, but it can be really hard to keep a city (ties up at least 20 troops for a size 10 city just conquered that they had any culture in).

Last edited by Fitz on 01-06-2002 at 02:45

	01-06-2002 02:41									#78
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quote: Originally posted by cyclotron7 Combat is random. Everything in a game must be random, or you would know the outcome ahead of time. Culture Flipping isn't confusing either, because we know the general formulas that go along with it. In terms of what we know about it, flipping is much less "confusing" than diplomacy or espionage. Human players can plan for it. Human players should plan around it. If by "plan" you mean "know the outcome beforehand," then I could say with equal correctness that combat in any Civ game ever can't be planned for.

I agree with you and DeepO on both of these points. My point is that, barring obscene difficulties in programming, I don't consider Phat's request unreasonable. Different people play the game differently. I'drather not get into a long discussion (debate) about what is/isn't fair, easy/difficult, balanced/unbalanced, etc. The point is that they released an editor which allows human players to tailor the game to their style. If this feature ruins the fun for them and is easy to change programmatically, then why not add it? I didn't really have an issue with stacking units, but enough people b!tched and that was added...

quote: There has to be a logical limit. You can't please everyone with a game, and you can't try to by making every feature in the game capable of being turned off. There is virtually no chance that Firaxis will spend time adding a toggle to remove a critical part of the game.

I agree that you can't please everyone, but disagree that it's a critical part of the game. It certainly adds an element of chance and excitement, but when it's poorly implemented as it seemed to be in the initial release, it can ruin the fun for a player.

	01-06-2002 02:42									#79
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Two quotes from this thread by Darthx86:

quote: Since culture flip is confusing and (at best) random, human players can't plan on it.

quote: Yes, I understand and plan for culture flipping...

Okay, I have officicially lost you. Either that, or you aren't human.

Anyways:

quote: Now, to get back to my original point: Civ 3 was released to be fun - it's a game. The reason it came with an editor is to allow players to tailor it better to their tastes. Some people like the challenges provided out of the box, while others want to tweak it to match their style of play. To this end, who cares if it unbalances the AI? If that's how they want to play it, then why stop them?

Please see my previous post on a logical limit. I could think of a million things that it is possible for people not to like in Civ3, and Firaxis can't spend time just making toggles for features people don't like (but apparently can live with, and play around). Strategies and mods are for tweaking...

In conclusion: It's not about letting you do what you want (which is fine), it's about priorities for the game developers. This is not likely to be one of them, since culture and flipping are such integral parts of the game.

	01-06-2002 02:55									#80
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quote: Originally posted by Stuie Also reminds me of the many tales of ancient cities under siege that were betrayed by small groups in the city that had ties to the besiegers. They would unlock the gates and let the besiegers in, no battle necessary. Flip.

That is already represented IMO with resistors, because cities with resistors get no defense bonuses. In civ, a flip is not simply "defense bonus of walls negated because gate was opened" it is the city flips with NO ATTACKING FORCE to be let in in the first place, and with no chance for your army to fight.

quote: Then there are cases such as Hong Kong (a British possession) being handed over to China. Sure it was a pre-arranged deal, but still.... it flipped from England to China.

No. Hong Kong was handed over by treaty, as in the human giving the AI a city as a gift. It did not flip spontaneously without consent of the leader and take the entire garrison with it.

	01-06-2002 03:14									#81
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darthx86,
Sorry, I didn't want to infer you didn't plan for it, I was only pointing out that what you said couldn't be like you played it.

quote: Originally posted by darthx86 Do you think the AI is really smart enough to control the game from a high enough level to plan for culture flipping? Nope... The Russians will follow the Russian gameplan according to various stimuli, as will the Zulus, the French, ad nauseum.

I don't think any AI is smart, rule-based systems are just as smart as the people who made it. But I am fairly sure that the gameplan as you call it takes culture flipping into account. One of the stimuli is exactly whether a city is under the influence of a foreign culture, so why wouldn't an AI player use this info? Besides, I have observed numerous times that, to a certain point, an AI border city is faster on acquiring culture than my opposite border city, only with the third or fourth cultural building does the balance shift. And at that time I'm definately going for extra culture, certainly when those cities are only 2 squares apart.

quote: The AIs' primary objective is acquiring land, and this runs counter to preparing for culture flipping. You've seen it - how often has an AI dropped off a settler and one (ONE!) defender on the only square on the coast that is not within your culture border?

Dropping off settlers on one square of open land does not happen that often anymore with the latest patches, and will never happen if your city is only 2 squares away. When it does happen, the nearest city is 3, or even 4 squares away, and once that city has build a temple (and gets its first border increase) the AI has a big chance of keeping it. Besides, if I have the chance, I do it too, and I even take more risk than the AI. I will, in certain cases, drop a city just along side a newly founded AI city, and rushbuild every possible cultural building in it. Those are the sites where you have the most chance of flipping to you, as many of the squares in the 21-radius are foreign.

quote: Now, to get back to my original point: Civ 3 was released to be fun - it's a game. The reason it came with an editor is to allow players to tailor it better to their tastes. Some people like the challenges provided out of the box, while others want to tweak it to match their style of play. To this end, who cares if it unbalances the AI? If that's how they want to play it, then why stop them

Sure, I agree. But the next thing you know is that people start whining that the AI is no good. And try telling then that it is their own fault... therefore I can understand the decision to make attack values editable, while keeping the basic concept of flipping in the game.

The risk of an unbalanced AI is not that it will allow cheating in one sort of way (which it does, BTW), but more that it becomes unstable, and, in the gravest of cases, unplayable. Where's the fun in that?
Okay, this last point might be an exageration(sp?), I have more confidence in the robustness of this AI, but I strongly feel that if Firaxis decides to make culture flipping an option they should at the same time make sure that the game is playable as well. If they can't guarantee that, keep the option out.

DeepO

	01-06-2002 03:23									#82
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quote: Originally posted by Fitz Well, the capitol factor can probably be estimated. If ranged from 1/4 to 4x the average number (2000), and we can assume 2000 to be equidistant.

I agree, I thought so myself. And that isn't the most important part of the formula. What is important is that now you can calculate precisely how many garrison units it takes to totally negate the chances of flipping. While in general this number is much too high to do it with every city, certain cities (like those with wonders) are worth all those spearmen, warriors and horsemen I keep running around

DeepO

Edit: this was kind of an obsolete comment, as I just noticed you mentioned it already in your cut-away thread.

	01-06-2002 03:53									#83
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Sorry for the late reply (my ISP is undergoing a change in service, and as a result, there are some connectivity issues).

Anyway, the points I was giving earlier that were basically:

1. Unit stacking was not in the initial, yet enough people complained (er, requested), and the programmers added that functionality while removing the forest exploitation.

2. IIRC, the original request was to add this function to the XP, so therefore, the programmers already have the code open and are hacking away.

3. Adding a single toggle is nowhere near the complexity of rewriting the entire AI... that's why I mentioned the point about not bothering with the adjustments to the AI. People who go into the editor already know they're making changes to Firaxis' intended game balance, effectively tipping the scales (usually to the human player).

Just wait until the XP is out and we try to iron all this out in a multi-player environment!

/out - time to start a new game!

	01-06-2002 04:37									#84
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quote: Originally posted by cyclotron7 . . .In conclusion: It's not about letting you do what you want (which is fine), it's about priorities for the game developers. This is not likely to be one of them, since culture and flipping are such integral parts of the game.

And that's why it is a non-historical failure for those of us opposed to ILLOGICAL and non-historical concepts Soren dreamed up over one too many beers

	01-06-2002 04:51									#85
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quote: Originally posted by Austin It's been brought up in a number of threads about culture flipping that there "has never been a historical example of a major culture flip" I would just like to point out that a large number of Rome's aquisitions, especially in the east, came about as a result of culture flipping. For example, Asia province, Bithnia and Cyrene were ALL "culture flips", the rulers of these kingdoms willed them to Rome because they felt that their people would benefit from being affiliated with Rome. Asia province in particular was the "milk cow" of the Roman republic. I know that Pontus was a military aquisition, but I think that Cappadocia and Cilicia might also have been "flips". That's the equivelant of all of modern day Turkey, and it was one of the most economically powerfull parts of the ancient world. Did the Seleucids actually fight Pompey for Syria, or did it roll over too? I'm pretty sure all those little guys like Oshroene simply rolled over for Rome without much of a fight. Austin

Wrong. Here's why.

First of all, the MANNER in which Culture Flipping is implemented in THE GAME is screwed up:

1. In reality. big garrisons do not vanish into thin air without even knocking off some population points and putting the city in disorder.

2. Individual units, or even dozens of units, can NOT make a city and its population vanish as though all the buildings and people were teleported to the Klingon home world. Razing is a total crock.

3. Cities that have been part of one big culture for millennia do not change civilizations. Period.

4. No city population would ever "depose" the government with a huge enemy army a few tiles away ready to attack them. Not unless they are all retarded.

5. No city would ever flip when the only city left to the defeated civ is its capital and the other side massively outnumbers you in everything. Proximity to the enemy capital is far too important in the game.

6. Enemy capitals, location of which is crucial for flipping, do NOT just hop from one town to the other as these towns and cities are conquered.

So in the game mechanics IT SUCKS.

Historically??

The Roman legions - THEIR MILITARY - caused cities to go over to them, not the writings of Tacitus, Suetonious, or Juvenal. Same with the real Mongol, Assyrian, and other armies. MILITARY INTIMIDATION did it, not the number of poets and libraries you had.

For those who doubt this, just look at Germania. After three Roman Legions were destroyed (XVII, XVIII, XIX) in 9 A.D. the Romans were never able to conquer, SUBDUE, and COLONIZE barbarian Germania - that despite Roman culture right next to it for centuries. So Culture Flipping is a non-historical crock.

Culture should do only one thing - quicken the pace of assimilation, as happened in Gaul.

Culture Flipping is Soren's idiotic brainstorm.

	01-06-2002 04:55									#86
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coracle, the next time i see a personal insult, you'll find yourself unable to post

	01-06-2002 05:20									#87
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quote: Originally posted by MarkG coracle, the next time i see a personal insult, you'll find yourself unable to post

He's been personally insulting Soren ever since he logged on.

	01-06-2002 05:26									#88
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What happens, I go to sleep and wake up to this....what a mess.

Someone mentioned about ancient cities converting or flipping their culture over. Thats all fine, thats not the culture flipping I'm worried about in my games. The culture flip that I'm worried about is in those big cities where millions live and they all decide all of a sudden to get a magic wand and say Ab bra ka dab bra and all my armies are gone in their city and it converts to the enemy.

I just want to say before a game. I don't want this happening. And just turn it off.

	01-06-2002 06:52									#89
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quote: Originally posted by MarkG coracle, the next time i see a personal insult, you'll find yourself unable to post

Whoa! Does that mean I can report him whenever he insults Soren personally?

	01-06-2002 06:54									#90
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quote: Originally posted by Phat_Phal What happens, I go to sleep and wake up to this....what a mess. Someone mentioned about ancient cities converting or flipping their culture over. Thats all fine, thats not the culture flipping I'm worried about in my games. The culture flip that I'm worried about is in those big cities where millions live and they all decide all of a sudden to get a magic wand and say Ab bra ka dab bra and all my armies are gone in their city and it converts to the enemy.

It's an armed rebellion. Your armies are trapped in a metropolis of hundreds of thousands of angry civilians with weapons (even if they are sub-par). The only magic wand would be a rifle...