31-05-2002 07:10									#31
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Grr..I hate Cheaters, I aint saying anyone is in particular, but I am fairly intelligent and have seen "suspect" happening, and been laughed at for questioning them. I feel this way, and this is ONLY my opinion.

If you do anything besides what the game was designed to do, and dont agree to use prior to game starting, ITS A CHEAT!


I have brought up RUSH-BUYING and been laughed at, to quote F G, he says everyone uses it, oh no, I dont, and I think its lame that people have to get ahead. I think its a shame, but as one poster has said, " It's part of the game" but its not an "exploit" its a cheat when evryone doesnt use or doesnt know how to use these "tricks".

Ramping..eh?..thats a new one, because I try and will continue to play game as it was shipped, not shortcutting or "exploiting"

Sad..so sad that folks have to, good or not so good players..

Why dont evryone grow up?..I bet those whom cheat were the same ones whom peered over anothers test and stole answers.

Troll

	31-05-2002 11:23									#32
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Troll!!! LOLOLOL - It was like Fadeds Prophecy... the wheel of time turns full circle.....

	31-05-2002 11:24									#33
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with all the recent allagations of cheating and different trick/cheats surfacing, a game should be started just for cheating Call it somthing like "Cheaters-|2-Us" All tricks from queue unit/building/wonder rush buys to ramping or stacking whatever it is.

	31-05-2002 12:02									#34
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good idea...

Now Doom - I want you to read through it... Everyone here knew about ramping - but forgot about it.... Our Switching discussion May 15th 2001 went into .... But we all were suprised and confused when it was originally posted - Simply forgotten - Your ICQ conversation is vague - The accusation was made (I assume based on the saves) so please send them to Blackice he will look for the evidence.

Paul was correct about the game between me and Blackice.... I remember it well - WAY behind on science.... Pots and pots of gold, and then he emptied his bladder all over my civ.

Doom do you want to now drop the subject and carry on with the competition .... If that is an option.... You have so far made baseless unfounded accussations - You have also made some pretty silly comments about me - But since I have once again taken my medication, I see no reason to have you killed at this point..... .... You must understand that if the accussation had been made the other way round I would have taken the same view point for another player - It is absolutely unfair to make very public accussations based on nothing but an opinion - This may only be a game, but there are people behind each and every post, and they have to be treated fairly... Everyone knows when a cheat IS exposed, I am the guy that will not hold back in what I say about them...

The issue here is that I insist that Paul is in competition, and anyone else in the comp is going to play him ... You and Yoda will likewise have to play Paul - But I think that this may be troublesome.... We could prestart the comp with an assumed 1/2 point draw with all games between Yoda Paul and Doom? But all 3 of you would have to agree.

	31-05-2002 12:53									#35
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Gavrushka, I'm going to try my best to show you in a follow-up message evidence of a pattern of unethical conduct by a particular individual. But I dont know what its going to take to convince you.

Did you spot Paul's posted mistake in claiming that courthouses and capitols are equivalent in production cost? They are not. Check your CTP game chart and you will see that capitols are much more expensive. And if you can't spot a mistake like this, will you be able to spot subtle cheating?

Paul's posted explanation for the 17,000 gold he had accumulated in his tourney test game with yoda--i.e that it must have been a computer glitch--should, according to your posted logic, simply be accepted because there is some noticeable lag in the tourney map program. However anyone who has tested out the tourney map knows full well that, while there is some lag, the program works just fine.

And if you haven't managed to make 17,000 gold magically appear in your own test game(s), why haven't you publically acknowledged this fact?

I'll promise you right here and now that if you can make this miracle come to pass, I will personally put up the prize money for the tournament.

As for competing against Paul in the tournament, I have played Paul many times, and while I have recently questioned his committment to honest play, I doubt very much that there will be any problems. In fact I'm looking forward to playing him. Honest or not he is still an excellent CTP player in his own right.

Dr. Doom

	31-05-2002 13:38									#36
	Full PM-box? Change here!

I appreciate your concerns Quinn about 'thin' evidence, but please understand I don't live at the Apolyton site. I'm doing the best I can right now in posting.

So far it appears that I've succeeded in educating or at least reminding people about the ramp-up rush-buy swap. And as far as I'm concerned this in itself has made my efforts worthwhile.

The important thing to remember about this trick is that its primary value lies not in producing units, but in speeding up infrastructure development. To those for whom this is a new revelation, my advice is: test it out for yourselves. You will quickly discover its deadly effectiveness.

Judging from the comments posted so far, it appears there will never be unanimous agreement on the definition of cheating. And for some people it appears that no amount of evidence with respect to cheating will ever be enough. Surely however saner heads will recognize that once an agreement has been reached to ban a certain practice, then any deliberate breach of that agreement is cheating.

Dr. Doom

	31-05-2002 14:37									#37
	Got spare money?

To my CTP friends:

Quinn, my recent message concerning the ICQ conversation I had with Paul about his knowledge of ramp-up swapping was intended to address, not so much the issue of a specific type of cheating, but to point out a very small piece of a disturbing pattern of unethical conduct by a particular individual. And while Paul's initial claim of ignorance with respect to ramp-up swapping may seem thin evidence to some, it isn't to anyone who values honesty. Paul understands ramp-up swapping, that is a publically established fact now, but I knew he did at the time I discussed the issue with him via ICQ. There was more to that conversation, and obviously I'm going to have to post some additional excerpts in order to make the point.

The fact is, when Paul was first confronted with the issue of the nearly 17,000 gold he had accumulated during his test game with yoda, he posted a message stating that it must have been a computer glitch. However, anyone who has tested the program knows full well that, while there is some lag, the program works just fine. Paul's explanation in that situation wasn't reasonable, and while that in itself doesn't prove anything, it should set a few alarm bells ringing in the minds of honest people.

Yoda posted a recent message stating that upon returning into a CTP game with Paul, he noticed that Paul was in the process of advancing his units in order to scout out Yoda's position. I've always known Yoda to be honest, and in case anyone misses the point here, the testimony of an honest man is evidence.

After adjourning a recent 4-player game, Paul blurted out to me on ICQ:

Paul: ...by the way as soon as we finished...I took Yoda's cities in well8...

In fact the game Paul was referring to was far from over, and anyone who doubts this can have a copy of the game. Here again is an example of Paul checking out positions during downtime.

Now all of this may seem thin evidence to some, but as far as I'm concerned its enough to make you want to watch your back. And, as I stated in my first memo, it was the accumulating pattern of unethical conduct that prompted me to publically express my concerns about Paul's conduct.

Dr. Doom

	31-05-2002 16:13									#38
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Time for the competition.. We draw the line here yes?

Doom I tried to get more prize money - I would be delighted if you want to contribute - I ain't withdrawing the money I put up - I think everyone would be happier with a USD2000 pot as opposed to USD1000.

Now we have all said what we need to - we are aware of ramping (we knew about it a year ago and basically just forgot about it)

	31-05-2002 17:33									#39
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I hate to be a mucker but continue Dr. Doom I am listening...that is what this thread is for as long as it stays here.


I remember the game too, I had factories built and battleships and subs. Paulino1 was not ahead on tech I was. Just thought I would toss that in

It would sure help to have the game files, just zip them and post them here as an attachment.

	01-06-2002 01:47									#40
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To my CTP friends:

Thanks Blackice. My intent from the outset was to post several maps, together with a detailed commentary advising people what, and where, to look for evidence of ramp-up swapping in Paul's cities.

And Gavrushka, don't worry, I hear you. I understand the consequences of what I'm doing. I've created hard feelings, divisiveness, and I've lost someone that I once considered a friend. My tirade will not continue indefinitely.

But you cared enough to organize a CTP tournament, and even to spot prize money. I can't imagine you'd want to see that tournament won through unethical play.

This discussion has for me been arduous, and I've found myself having to explain and defend a few points that I consider to be fairly obvious.

Let me re-state my original plan and objective. Over time I had observed bits of evidence to suggest that Paul is not a particularly ethical CTP player. Therefore, when I saw the 17,000 gold Paul had accumulated during his tourney test-game with yoda, knowing that Paul uses ramp-up swapping, I confronted him privately with my concerns.

However, instead of being forthcoming, Paul denied knowing anything about ramp-up swapping. This combination of circumstances, the massive hoard of stored gold, the feeble excuse, and the obviously feigned ignorance, led me to conclude that if Paul was prepared to cheat in a tourney test-game, then there was good reason to believe he was not prepared to honor the rules in the tournament itself.

However, I realized that the only way I could alert people to the true significance of the massive gold Paul had accumulated in the test-game was to educate people about 1) ramp-up swapping, 2) about the fact that Paul uses this system, and 3) that Paul is an unethical player.

Assuming for the sake of argument that I am correct Gavrushka, am I not doing the right thing here?

Dr. Doom

	01-06-2002 02:37									#41
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The problem is I have played Paul, checked the games turn by turn, and he has never ramped - I have seen a game where he had more than 17,000 gold - but that was because he turned science off, and was accumulating 4 figures almost per turn.... You see the way I look at it, people are innocent until proven guilty- and in comp every turn will be checked, so there is no possibility of any form of cheating from Switching passing through the net - there are many moderators for this tournament, and trust me if cheating is proven it will be dealt with summarily so whatever your concerns or arguments are, they bear no relevance to the competition - I know of one player in comp who has cheated against me ( I have saves) but I am letting it pass as I feel kind of amused that someone feels the need to cheat to try and beat me! - Blackice has repeatedly asked for saves from the game in question - I assume you have them - I have also asked if in the particular game rush buy switching was agreed or not.... neither piece of information has been forthcoming.... well you can imagine that is pretty irritating, because what in essence it means is you are interpreting a situation - which no matter how fishy you personally feel it is, is certainly not evidence.

please send saves to Blackice

please answer whether switching was allowed in that game

	01-06-2002 03:41									#42
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

Ok guys, something just occurred to me and I'd like to hear your thoughts. When I'm about to build a wonder, I'll almost always start building something expensive, like a cathedral. Then, when there is one turn left, I'll switch to a wonder, so that my opponents have less time to compete with me for it. Is this cheating?

	01-06-2002 03:46									#43
	Answer Put an end to popups!

I am staying out of this except to answer any questions someone may have. I have stated my conclusion based on the evidence that I have seen. As to your question about the swap issue, the tournament test map was to be played with tournament rules.

	01-06-2002 03:55									#44
	Increase the size of your Attachments

quote: Originally posted by david42one Ok guys, something just occurred to me and I'd like to hear your thoughts. When I'm about to build a wonder, I'll almost always start building something expensive, like a cathedral. Then, when there is one turn left, I'll switch to a wonder, so that my opponents have less time to compete with me for it. Is this cheating?

David my friend

I dont see that as a cheat, you are not "rush-buying" something cheaper and gaioning a much more expensive item, you are merely using your production turns to save toward the wonder, I often start a wonder, and switch to another better wonder, at the rate my science works, I can not see purchasing an ancient wonder, because I can see it going obsolete at AOR, and not having much time to gain usefulness out of it!

Peace!

Troll

	01-06-2002 04:02									#45
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I think it is common practice to start building something before you have access to the item you want... I often start building colliseums as I wait for banking advance to come up - no problems there.

	01-06-2002 04:03									#46
	Got spare money?

quote: Originally posted by david42one Ok guys, something just occurred to me and I'd like to hear your thoughts. When I'm about to build a wonder, I'll almost always start building something expensive, like a cathedral. Then, when there is one turn left, I'll switch to a wonder, so that my opponents have less time to compete with me for it. Is this cheating?

Only if there's a rule stating that you are not allowed to do this.

I'm starting to sound like someone I know

	01-06-2002 04:05									#47
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I think they may pass a new law JPWW.....

	01-06-2002 06:43									#48
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Gavrushka, this discussion is just about over.

I don't know what your definition of cheating is, because you haven't stated it. And frankly I suspect you won't. In my country people are innocent until proven guilty, except in rare circumstances, like when someone is caught red-handed with burglary tools.

For me, there are at least three situations in which a person can be said to have cheated: 1) Where a pre-arranged agreement on rules has been broken; 2) where someone lies about a trick they are using. 3) Where circumstantial evidence of cheating is amassed and no reasonable alternative explanation is forthcoming.

Now you might disagree with my definition about what constitutes cheating, but frankly that doesn't concern me. To answer your question specifically, in the games I am about to post, there was NO prior agreement to ban ramp-up swapping. So, if you need something to fall on top of you before you can see it, then you can leave this discussion satisfied that you saw nothing.

However, unethical behavior, lying about using a practise, and a mass of suspicious evidence count for anything, then my case is not so easy to dismiss.

On to the posted games....

Dr. Doom

	01-06-2002 07:00									#49
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Better hope Solver dont see this thread DrDoom, I got 3 days for SIMPLY REPLYING THREE TIMES in a row to 3 different posts!!

I see where you P O S T E D three in a row..hmm..maybe he will be more lenient..perhaps..but you are getting into it with his pal Gavrushka

Ifin only we could somehow monitor what Solver and Gavrushka talk about, in private..


To prove my point..llokie what My Solver Hall HeadMaster said to me

Troll

ACS CTP/AC PBEM Ladder Admin, Interview Chief
Latvia, Riga

Sep 2000

03-05-2002 16:22



Troll, really, enough, you've spammed this to hell. Gotta delete some posts now - posting this much rhetoric in this many posts in a row... Sorry Troll, see you in three days, for now your posting rights are restricted.

Last day of the entry!


__________________
Solver the "Running Beer"

are you daring me to make a "which civ games have you played" in the ot and also have a "none" option? - Markos Giannopoulos, 08.07.01.

Last edited by Solver on 03-05-2002 at 16:30


I am just warning you, so you dont get blindsided as I did, and get booked away without warning, afterall, YOU DID post three in a row

Troll

Last edited by Grandpa Troll on 01-06-2002 at 07:10

	01-06-2002 08:24									#50
	Got spare money?

i just thought about the tourney map game for a minute, I had 3 triple mono's operating and many other mono's going and dozens of advanced mines. Hence i was making a lot of gold per turn probbaly 1000 gold being saved per turn for a long time. I have allready said how i dont like spending money in commi very much cause its so expensive. So quite possibly i just saved up 17000 gold over a period of tiem and didnt spend it, perhaps this may not be the smartest move. But i probably had some small cities i could have rushed buyed mills but i didnt. Cause im kinda tight. I rush buy graneries and mills but generally not much more. Allso rush buy markets and banks in trade cities sometimes. But thats almost allways before commi. I allso noticed in the last couple of games i also saved up well over 10 k. Thats with making a hell of a lot less gold per turn than in the game with yoda. Hence the most likely reason for the 17 gold is probably the simplest. I earnt a lot of money and didnt spend it (-:, it MAY not be smart but it certainly aint a crime. I allso like to rush buy airports in trade cities when the time arises. Due to trade cities often not being able to build them very fast.

Quite amazing i didnt think of this before, i often get quite lazy and cant be bothered looking at what my newer cities are doing, so this must also be cheating as well hmmm:

quote: As for competing against Paul in the tournament, I have played Paul many times, and while I have recently questioned his committment to honest play, I doubt very much that there will be any problems. In fact I'm looking forward to playing him. Honest or not he is still an excellent CTP player in his own right.

Well this might come of some surprise to you doom but your aquisations kinda annoyed me and i do hold a grudge. Actually I did not cheat in anyway and did not use the ramping , so as for ever playing me again you can .


I still havent decided whether i will reenter the tourney. 1000US is $2200NZ which is a lot of money that would buy me a new puter

	01-06-2002 08:33									#51
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Now Im with Dr.Doom here...I think Paul was actively cheating here. If so, as CTP-Tourney president I vote to remove paul from the list. But I havent read all the posts, and I promise to do so tommorrow. But now.....back to Beer. Delicous beer.

Anybody else watchin airforce one?

	01-06-2002 10:05									#52
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Hold on faded glory. I hope that was more beer than brain speaking.

Under NO circumstances do I want to see Paul banned from the tournament. Paul is still an excellent CTP player, as I've said, and he and Yoda are the primary contenders for the title of World's Best CTP Player. I only wish Paul would understand the importance of a stronger committment to honesty and integrity and fair play.

For a long time now I considered this guy a friend, and Paul is right about one thing: we have had some epic CTP battles. I am going to sorely miss them.....

Dr. Doom

	01-06-2002 10:26									#53
	Full PM-box? Change here!

lol since when is there a president of the tourney? Of course I was joking man. I do say that I think paul cheated tho.

	01-06-2002 10:32									#54
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thanks for your confidence faded
i appreciate your supprt
ive allready quit the tourney by the way

	01-06-2002 10:34									#55
	Put an end to popups!

What kind of voters would elect a derelict like me to manage a tourney?

Oh paul, you cant quit! Your FIRED!

	01-06-2002 11:36									#56
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To my CTP friends:

Oh man, I've really screwed up. Believe me, having Paul withdraw from the tournament is not what I had anticipated or wanted. All I hoped for was a fair playing field, one where the tournament would be won by skill and fair play, and not by trickery.

I was exasperated with you Paul, because you weren't up front with me when you should have been. But I can't participate in the tournament without you, and I doubt that yoda could either.

As of right now I will cease and desist my postings at Apolyton.

Dr. Doom

	01-06-2002 11:55									#57
	Inflate your Upload Space

Thanks for posting Paul - and I think that Doom has matched my contribution as regards prize money - Stop press, maybe he didn't...

Faded is barking at the full moon again! Can I say that about a man the size of a house and live?

My definition of evidence Doom is the thing we are talking about - your opinions and interpretations are NOT evidence- and also your attempts to gode me with personal attacks are not evidence, as regards whether Paul ever ramped in other games - I personally feel that Rush-Buy Switching is rush buy switching however it is used... so the evidence can only come from the saves of the game of the pre-made map in MY opinion.... Now note - here I use the word opinion- that means thats what I think - There is a difference between this and evidence - You have throughout this set yourself as Judge, Prosecutor and Jury, you have reached a verdict - you refer to the 'exhibit A' stuffed in your pocket - You could have posted saves straight away, but now days have gone by and nothing... I for one no longer believe a word you say, and I think it has got to the point where you have been flogging a dead horse for so long you don't know where to stop - I am kind of staggered you arrive at Apolyton, and from the very first post made relentless attempts to assassinate the character of somebody who has been posting here on and off for many months- Maybe it is the way in your country, wherever that may be, to form a lynch mob and attempt to destroy a reputation based on 'something fishy' - and now it appears after page after page of posting - you are making a dramatic exit without ever supplying a scrap of evidence... Understand something - we have an unwritten code of ethics here which precludes this place as an individuals soap box to spread rumours and half truths presented as facts..

As regards my definition of cheating - you send the evidence to a moderator, they check against the rules for that game, and report their findings after consulting with other people. Accussations are made privately until the findings are revealed by the independant moderator.

Your dramatic exit from apolyton is a 2 edged sword to me, I am pleased insofar as you have done nothing to contribute to this community, apart from rip apart the competition, but it is always sad to see somebody leave, as I am sure you could have equally made positive contributions, and even found, despite your prejudged opinions otherwise, we are a good bunch of people, and have some very good players here..

	01-06-2002 18:18									#58
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quote: Originally posted by Dr. Doom1 Oh man, I've really screwed up.

You sure did. Let this be a lesson to others who accuse people on a whim. In a way, maybe this was good for the community. That is, PLEASE DON'T ACCUSE ANYONE UNLESS YOU ARE SURE OF YOUR ACCUSATION AND HAVE PROOF TO BACK IT UP!

Damn it, there goes Paulno1. Now we have a tournament without possibly the best player. I will still play but... DAMN!

	01-06-2002 21:05									#59
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

SOOOOOOOO why did Paul quit? Paul why did you quit? Heh takes more than this to tap your personality...so why did you quit?

The tourney is going to be moderated with a microsocpe it is only fair with all the cash on hand. So not likely anyone will cheat and get away with it.

Doom is trying to make a case but we need the game files Dr. Doom without it we have nothing to go on. This game in question has nothing to do with the tourney at all, I will make this clear: each and every turn will be viewed under a microscope by at least 5 players min. Not much will get by that I assure you So play people what is the fear?

My opinion is let Doom continue I see no harm in it. He has yet to send the files without it we see words.

But no harm at all, how many of us have been accused we are still here and still playing.

	01-06-2002 21:18									#60
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size of a house gav? Get lost man...