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blackice
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Canada where else...
Sep 2000
time: 00:19
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To my CTP friends:
The ramp-up swap works like this: Suppose you want to build a large unit, like a destroyer, quickly. If you look at the CTP game chart, you will see that the cheapest entry point into the build-up ramp sequence is the temple or the courthouse, both having an equal production cost. But of course it is necessary to build temples in your cities fairly early, in order to control city riots. This then leaves the courthouse as the only real option as a cheap entry point into the build sequence.
Now suppose you take even a small city with a couple of turns of production. On one turn you switch to a courthouse (production cost: 270) and rush-buy it for a few hundred gold. Then ON THE SAME TURN you immediately switch to a city-wall (production cost: 405) and rush-buy it for about 350 more gold (eg. under communism). Then switch to a publishing house (production cost: 540), then to a marketplace (production cost: 675), and finally to a colosseum (production cost: 1,035). (You may want to build the colosseum in your queue for one turn in order to dramatically reduce the finishing cost.) If you look again at the CTP game chart you will see that you have now stepped up, for minimal cost, to the production equivalent of a destroyer (production cost: 1,000)--at a devastatingly quick pace.
The same kind of sequence can be used for quickly constructing factories and mills. In the case of a factory for example (production cost: 2,025), you would ramp up to the city clock (production cost: 1,620) before finally switching to the factory.
Dr. Doom
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quinns
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Right Gavrushka. But let's listen to what Dr. Doom has to say before we call him a "witch hunter". Paulno1 has never even acknowledged our earlier defense of him in the "CTP Competition" thread. That, obviously, does not constitute guilt... But if someone went out on a limb to defend ME, I would DEFINITELY at least say "thanks for defending my character". (But this could be part of Paul's personality. There is no law against being thankless.)
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yoda
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PG, BC, Canada
Nov 2000
time: 21:19
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Whatever Paul has done and will do in games outside of the competition is up to the individual players to decide. There are only a few questions that NEED to be answered with regards to the test game on the pre-made map. I am not accusing Paul of going against the rules. What I am suggesting is that there are some issues that need to be answered. As for the rest of this discussion, that is between Paul, Dr. Doom and anyone else that would like to see this resolved.
1) Why did Paul have close to 17000 gold saved up? This is NOT a glitch in the game as I have tested loading up saved games with other people and there is NO such problem.
2) Why did Paul suggest it may have been a problem with the pre-made map, trying to dodge the issue? It may be that his memory of the situation was not what it normally is, but I know that Paul is a very smart guy and a very capable player. I can't accept that he would simply has missed this or forgot about it.
I have seen the evidence that Dr. Doom has put together. In my opinion, there is no question that Paul deployes the ramp-up strategy in games as indicated by the evidence. The fact that he has denied using this strategy and that at one point even suggested he wasn't aware of it is VERY interesting. However, it still does not prove that Paul was going to or did use this strategy in the pre-made map test game. There are a few situations in the pre-made map that may indicate the use of the ramp-up strategy, but I will let Dr. Doom explain that as it is his efforts here, not mine.
yoda
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yoda
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PG, BC, Canada
Nov 2000
time: 21:19
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Gav, the issue here is not about other games, but the test game on the comp2 map that Paul and I had. From what Dr. Doom has told me, the other games are "evidence" of a pattern that suggests there may be the same issues in the comp2 test game. The reason I am asking about the 17000 gold and why the denial from Paul regarding it is simple. The only way a ramp-up strategy works is if you have enough gold to use it. Second, the pattern of denial combined with the evidence in the other games strongly suggests that something is fishy here.
Now I understand your concern regarding Paul. There is NO question he is one of the best (and perhaps the best although unproven) CTP player around. It would be sad if he were to not participate in this tournament. However, we have to make sure there is a level playing field for all players. If there is any question about anyone's play, it needs to be addressed.
On a more serious note, I know for a fact that there are people out there that are willing to look at the game map in progress during an active game. This can be done using a second computer or during a "crash". It is my greatest hope that nobody in this tournament is willing to sink to those kind of levels. I am not suggesting that ANYONE does use these, I just wanted to show people that there are problems and that not all of them can be solved except by people being honest!
yoda
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yoda
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PG, BC, Canada
Nov 2000
time: 21:19
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quote:
Originally posted by faded glory
I tried this trick, I dont see how it greatly benefits? Someone explain it to me. |
The ramp-up/switch trick? Say you wanted a destroyer in a size one city in a hurry. It would cost 8000 gold to just rush buy it. Now, if you rush buy a serious of city improvements, switching as you go, in one turn you can have that same destoryer for a total cost of only 3043. The cost is further reduced significantly if you already have some production in the city from previous turns, or you disband a unit. The cost of any unit or city improvement is reduced parabolically over time. Therefore, by rushing one small item, the rush on the second item after switching is far cheaper, etc... By spending a very small amount of gold, you could save significant turns in completing things like oil refineries or factories or mills simply by using a few rush buys in the middle of your production.
Another example, let's say you have 4 turn of production in producing a mill which will take a total of 12 turns to complete. If you look in your production queue for some city improvement that will take 5 or 6 turns, switch, rush buy and then switch back, you've saved a couple of turns at a cost of only a few hundred gold at most! You can repeat this trick as many times as you want. There is an optimum point for spending on rush buys. Any mathamatician could tell you where that point is based on the simple parabolic formula. Don't ask me, I'm not a mathamatician... LOL
yoda
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Paulno1
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Auckland New Zealand
Mar 2001
time: 05:19
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I wrote this about 12 hours ago but didnt like to post it, but looks like i will, i aint got time to read all the other posts yet i gotta go to work
paul bows down in respect to all his supporters and thanks them all for beleiving him (quinns and gav especially) I wasted 3 hours talking to doom yesterday and he tried talking to me today i said 2 sentences before i said no more i deleted him from my icq yesterday, oh well no great loss never finished one game with him, thats right not onnnneeeeee. Only games ive finsihed with either, is when yoda won one once 1 v1, When we played no restarts, so that one doesnt even count since he hosted. We finished 2, with me and dragon vs yoda and doom. They won tehm both due to superior land mostly (1 was more than a year ago)
i played 1 four player with filix on my team, we were milies ahead and we never continued. Ive had many 1 v1 with both yoda and doom every time i am winning, either one says oh my land is to poor lets restart or i dont remember this one very well lets restart. Would anyone else here tolerate a restart after 2 hours?, yoda has done that 3 times. We had many games get into modern and never continued. Ive never complained till now. I normally concede when i know ive lost the game i dont normally run and hide. Of course there might be an exception to the rule.
Well lets now get down to the last epic 4 player with doom and yoda vs me and dragon. Dragon lost 8 citeis at one stage to yoda. Things were looken bad but he still had close to 40 cities anyway. But then i got jet propultion (allready ahead by almost a inch myself on ranking, i had quite good land) dragon still last. i started building paratroopers before i got them, which im sure changing what your building is not illigitimate. (i sisnt rush buy any thing) I attacked and took 2 cities over a period of 2 turns i think. I then had 2 partrooping bases for which to launch from on his island and had a about 4 on my own land ready to launch i
soon discovered that yoda had no units in some cities and ships in the closest ones i lost 16 jets on one city with boats, and took the city. I then took another 5 with paratroopers and a few jets on the same turn, selling the oil refineries as i went. he took all them back except 3 i disbanded, but teh damage was certainly done. I never got another turn, and in the lobby i said i BET we never continue this one to dragon. Even after 25 maybe 40 hours of playing. Surprise 2 days later im accused of cheating concidence maybe, probably even, but hey. Ive played everyone here that plays on line i think and told everyone about the tricks i learnt from other ctp friends.
hey if you think im a cheat fine, i dont mind. Never play me again
i can live with that, i can honestly say ive never used teh ramp
consistently. I may have used it 5 times in all in 2 years probably a ll more than 6 months ago. Im only guessing. I did wonder about it but serves no real purpose. Unless you want to buy them from the start, but i dont think that is wise, but what do i know.
Edited by erica
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quinns
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quote:
Originally posted by Gavrushka
Solver- is there a way to look at the archives of this forum.... I need to look at a thread called Trick or Cheat which was created around a year ago.... |
Here it is Gav...
http://apolyton.net/forums/showthre...=&threadid=6233
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Grandpa Troll
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I owe..I owe..it's off to work I go
Jul 2000
time: 00:19
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This is from that post you folks have been discussing:
faded glory
King
of PBEM, better than lung and birdman!
Jan 2001
15-05-2001 05:16
quinns, why now, did you open pandora's box? This puts into question, the future of PBEM.
It is easy to spot someone using this cheat/bug. If they are 3X stronger then everybody else on the PG. Everybody on LAN uses it, but I call them on it. Because you sort of wonder why people never get granary's built...late in the game (but have facctorys etc)
Birdman, there is a good solution to this. If you suspect someone, Spy in turns on people who are unvelievably strong on the PG.Then notify all player's to do the same, then eject that person. And see if there is a Granary rush-buying then switching to settler.
I am not that great a player, but have been on an occasion way ahead, by luck and by ruins, I dont chaet,never have never will.
But I ask you this, when someone is 3X ahead of me, does that mean they cheat?
Point to ponder is all. I abhor cheaters and well, I suspect a little more "ramping" or "rush-buing" goes on than most folks want to admit. Sad, but true, that some folks find a backdoor or shortcut to take advantage of a situation. I accuse no one, I am just saying that you folks cant have it both ways, if someone is cheating, prove it or dont accuse. If someone is 3X ahead on PG, that doesnt mean they are or are not cheating, according to all the judges/jury members herein!
Have a greeat day!
Troll
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blackice
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Canada where else...
Sep 2000
time: 00:19
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Personally I do not give a rat's arse if Paulino1 used it in a NoN pbem, online, tournament apolyton game. Did he cheat? Do I care no...
I would like to view the game files if one would be so kind to send them 
This tournament will be gone through turn by turn on every game. I would like to see more volunteers to help in this endever.
P.S. Cheaters will be tossed privately, and of course will have the opportunity to defend, privately...
The advantages of helping are obvious, you get to watch first hand some of the greats in action, turn by turn. I can't not think of a better way to learn this game.
So who is signing up? Email me at blackicegl@cogeco.ca
People in the tourney need not apply 
Now what about the science fix? Anyone have info on that?
Now as far as accusing cheaters for some that are new here...
We email the accusation with the game files and explain the accusation in private. We then have several people go over the game files and form an independant opinion. We all discuss the accusation and come to a common agreement about it.
Then we have someone with diplomatic skills email the accused if in fact we all agree they cheated. If the player can not accept the fact they were found out and deny it they are exposed publicly. That way other honest players here can decide for themselves. Any and all proof is email by anyone's request. This way the community stays clean, honest and smooth running.
If they admit to it we keep it private and they are warned and watched from them on in. Fair we think
So this thread has been started to clean the air for these two players and to expose more if any tricks, cheats and quarks that could skew what can be a most exciting, challenging "best of the world" tournament. As they say keep it clean keep it fair and no hitting below the belt!
Get ready to rummmmmmmmmble!
quote:
On a more serious note, I know for a fact that there are people out there that are willing to look at the game map in progress during an active game. This can be done using a second computer or during a "crash". It is my greatest hope that nobody in this tournament is willing to sink to those kind of levels. I am not suggesting that ANYONE does use these, I just wanted to show people that there are problems and that not all of them can be solved except by people being honest!
yoda |
I agree and felt the same way I did not post it I editted it out of the other thread as it did not belong there. This of all tricks will be the hardest to catch. One can hit print screen with a shot of the exposed enemies map and save it to there desktop screen for quick reference. This makes saving the game every turn of the utmost importance....
Ok that said game saves please and a detailed explaination also any more tricks?
quote:
MANY PEOPLE ARE UNAWARE OF HOW THESE TRICKS/CHEATS ARE USED, AND THEREFORE ARE NOT IN A POSITION TO SPOT THEIR USE IN THE TOURNAMENT. |
Totally agree Dr. Doom that is why I started this thread
Last edited by blackice on 31-05-2002 at 04:54
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Paulno1
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Auckland New Zealand
Mar 2001
time: 05:19
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I didnt want to atack yoda hence the delay in that big post, but since he sided with doom it seems the line of no return has passed. 3000 gold for a destroyer well if you wanna spend that much fine go aead and use teh trick (i personally wont) or even 3000 gold for a factory seems excessive. Im a little tight but tahts just me. So i had 17k gold thats not criminal but if the saves allso suggests i dont have markets and banks in ALL trade cities then you dont have to be a rocket scientist to work out something fishy is going on maybe me cheating, but that suggests i cheat in every aspect. Since the premade map has filies altered and so fourth it is not really taht surprising.
So what evidence in other games are there that suggests i cheated, i sometimes dont build court houses, haha oh no so i do things different to others, maybe thats why i am better ??????
i had a look in the game with dragon last night, I had a city on 7 with 1500 production and a court house in it, the crime was 2%
so im presuming before the courthouse it was double. So the court house saves 30 prod a turn and since the city had 170 or so gold (many big mines) it saves about 2 gold a turn maybe 5, even if it is, its stil bugger all. saved about 1 food, didnt have much workers on food. Hence is a court house really that great? if you build it when your city prod is 300 to 400, it may be worthwhile if you dont have better things to do. But after that once your city prod gets up, the effective cost of the courthouse is 1 turn produciton still. So if your city is producing at say 600 is it still worth building them ? You could put up teh pw rate but then other cities might not build it in 1 turn. Hence why i dont allways build them. At about 600 prod academeis and publishing houses can be built at 1 turn each, which i think is a better plan.
Just to put in another point, capitals are the same production as court houses and you can build them at any point in the game except in your capital itself. Hence i dont need to not build court houses just for the reason of using them in the illaberate switch.
Which i dont USE.
Only buildings that in my oppinion are essetnail are graneries aquaducts mills and temples. Factories are a luxury, kinda essential in a bigger map game.
As for ranking jumping a lot on 1 turn taht is easy to explain. All you have to do is have all cities finsihing building things on teh same turn. Once in a 2 v1 game with gav and blackice i turned my science off saved up 30000 gold and rush buyed what was left of teh production needed to build all teh factories. I did this just for the effect and i knew i was pretty much unstopable at that point.
Last night with dragon i saved up allmost 10k before i had any use for it, a airport in a trade city costing 3 k . I would say i have saved up 100k in the past just cause i didnt like spending 10k on a oil refinery or something.
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Erica
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auckland
Jun 2001
time: 17:19
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Hey, don't blame me for the editing - I think you posted the un-edited version there Paul. Still using "illegitimate" instead of "illegal".
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Dr. Doom1
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To my CTP friends:
Judging from the postings I think I have manged to get people's attention about CTP tricks, and how they could be misused in the tournament. People need to be aware of these tricks in order to be able to spot them. And yes, I've made an accusation, and if you give me a chance I'll show you the evidence.
'Evidence,' people are saying. 'We want evidence.' OK, I'll start by presenting to you what Paul had to say to me via ICQ on the subject of ramp-up swapping. This is in itself a bit of evidence:
Doom: The other day I asked you if you had any more CTP "tricks" up your sleeve...remember that? And you said "I do a lot of swaps"...remember?
Paul: ummm nope
Paul: Only other bug that I've noticed...when you crash and are about to finish building settlers the next turn...when you come back in the settlers are produced and the city is size two...
Doom: wow!!!....so that's why some peeps crash a lot...lolol
Paul: lol
Doom: ok...but you also said you do a lot of swaps...I'm sure I remember you saying it....
Paul: Only swaps I can think of if you mean rush buying ones is, is markets for caravans but can never do that with you guys cause there is not enough money and temples for pikemen...
Paul: and only other swaps I can think of is when say the tech for factories is coming soon I start building city clocks and then switch over but I'm sure you do **** like that anyway....
[Actually I haven't used this particular trick, but I appreciate the tip Paul.]
Doom: no paul...that's not what I'm talking about....
Paul: I have no idea what you are talking on about, i've mentioned every sort of strategy to do with swapping I can think of...
Doom: no paul...I'm talking about ramping up multiple infrastructure swaps to get units much cheaper and faster...
Paul: naa..I haven't done anything like that at all...not even sure what you mean.
Recently Paul posted several messages at the forum stating that he not only knows about the ramp-up swap, but that he's known about it for quite awhile, and even used it.
However, in his ICQ conversation he claims to know nothing. I can provide a copy of the ICQ transcript, but in this particular case I'd rather you just take my word for it.
So here we have evidence of a man who's already changed his story significantly since first being confronted. Doesn't inspire a whole lot of confidence in Paul's word, does it?
But don't worry. I have much better evidence to present, and I will soon enough.
Dr. Doom
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quinns
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Well that was pretty thin Doc. You say that Paulno1 said, "... not even sure what you mean ...". Even if he did say that ... So what? You make a conclusion of cheating based upon this?? I hope the next batch of evidence is much more substantial than this. I'm beginning to think that Gavrushka's instincts were right.
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30-05-2002 18:55
).
. I'm enjoying it terifically (but then again, I'm a classic civer).
.
I think everyone should have a look at the thread above.... Nice touch about Fadeds wife Paul.... If you had seen a picture of Faded (he looks like Arnie) you would not have been so rude... Ahh... and thats how the famous game of me and Quinns versus you started... where you beat us both (and strutted your stuff mercilessly much to mine amd Quinns Annoyance) for weeks on end... Damn that brings back painful memories...
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