02-06-2002 02:31									#31
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quote: Originally posted by Dalgetti you're so full of ****. I've lived in the soviet union, and many things WERE ****ed up there. noone was forced to wear the same clothes, and be sad , or something. you're full of ****. Eli knows that things weren't bad in the SU, as everyone portrays.

Thanks for proving my point. Dull grey and HUMORLESS!

	02-06-2002 02:31									#32
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quote: Originally posted by Dalgetti yes. ( unless you have something in mind by "*IS*" )

From your post it seems you equate socialism to communism?

	02-06-2002 02:31									#33
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quote: Originally posted by Asher Imagine Israel as a communist country. It wouldn't have the business it has now, it'd be low on cash and people more upset, PLUS it'd be in a warzone.

Yeah, I guess communists could screw anything up...

	02-06-2002 02:33									#34
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quote: Originally posted by Dalgetti Free press, not controlled by either government or private property, but another branch of the government , like the court system

So your "free press" thats "not controlled by the government" is "another branch of the government"?

	02-06-2002 02:33									#35
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Hes been sniffing his shorts again

	02-06-2002 02:37									#36
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quote: Wheres the humor in communism? Everyone has to be the same and all wear dull and dreary clothes with frowns on their faces.

Well, Russians certainly made up a lot of jokes about it.

Ivan dies and goes to hell. The devil shows him the places a bit and then asks whether he wants to go to communist hell or capitalist hell. Ivan asks what do the hells hold. Devil says that both involve people being roasted on a gigantic furnace. Ivan chooses, without question, communist hell. Devil asks for a reason, and Ivan says "Well, you know how it works in communist hell. One day, there isn't enough coal, next day, there's enough coal but furnace isn't working, and another day, there's enough coal and furnace is working but the heater's passed out drunk..."

What is the Soviet definition of an automobile?
"Automobile is a transportation vehicle which people use through their elected representatives."

	02-06-2002 02:39									#37
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no , socialism from what I've seen in socialist countries ( like Israel was ) is a mix of government and private property.

and Israel, while being socialist enjoyed immense growth for around 20 years. being around 10% almost yearly. then , the system started to decay, due to the strengthening of the private owners that became very powerful, and started bribing the well paid government officials that run parts of the system. Also the occupation of the west bank has poured cheap labour from the underdeveloped regions of Jordan , that were occupied by Israel , creating a degradation of the agricultural societies , that relied on Israeli labor prior to that, and the construction companies that hired them , as well. Money , in the form of wages to Palestinians has begun to pour out , and though most of it returned to the Israeli economy it still hit the citizens of Israel.

	02-06-2002 02:42									#38
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Socialism doesn't have to be a mix of government and private property.

You're taking communism and taking out most of the communist parts of it to get a really left wing form of socialism...

	02-06-2002 02:46									#39
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quote: Originally posted by Stefu Well, Russians certainly made up a lot of jokes about it. Ivan dies and goes to hell. The devil shows him the places a bit and then asks whether he wants to go to communist hell or capitalist hell. Ivan asks what do the hells hold. Devil says that both involve people being roasted on a gigantic furnace. Ivan chooses, without question, communist hell. Devil asks for a reason, and Ivan says "Well, you know how it works in communist hell. One day, there isn't enough coal, next day, there's enough coal but furnace isn't working, and another day, there's enough coal and furnace is working but the heater's passed out drunk..." What is the Soviet definition of an automobile? "Automobile is a transportation vehicle which people use through their elected representatives."

	02-06-2002 02:46									#40
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Caligastia: you're not paying attention. would you consider courts in democratic countries independant, therefor not controlled by the government ? so why can't the same be done with media?

Stefu:

the inefficiency joke is correct, many innefficiencies existed on the micromanagement level. The car joke is ... funny. My father had a car. most of my father's friends had cars. they were all of different proffessions. Sure , the cars weren't as good as the west's cars. But if the SU would put some more work in them , and not , say , the latest BMP, maybe they would be better too. I always said that one of the main flaws of the SU was sending it's best minds , organizers, scientists and engineers, into the military development .

	02-06-2002 02:49									#41
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Asher : I've read the works of Marx , and Trotsky. if they're not communist , who is ? ( I am not considering myself a marxist, but Trotsky , and his ideas of the improvement of the SU , when in exile , appeal to me greatly )

	02-06-2002 02:52									#42
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I'm so confused on how you think your description is communism.

Oh well, feel free to advocate communism. Don't be surprised once you get communism that it's nothing like your description.

	02-06-2002 02:57									#43
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what do you think is communism?

	02-06-2002 03:03									#44
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Well, for one, Communism doesn't permit for "choices in your personal life". For example, what if I wanted to go get another job? Is that permitted under true communism?

You also talk about voicing dissent and the free press. What other communsim actually permitted this?

And finally, you talk about BONUSES. For christ sake, you're going to give BONUSES to reward performance in COMMUNISM?

	02-06-2002 03:06									#45
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yes , yes , yes.

communism is a socio-economical system for the equal distribution of wealth, not a blueprint to build a human hive. ( some SMACers might disagree.)

	02-06-2002 03:07									#46
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quote: Originally posted by Dalgetti what do you think is communism?

If I had to equate it to something..... ....Sheffield.. Its grey, its miserable, and everyone wants out.

	02-06-2002 03:08									#47
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Well Asher is more right than Dal, but the truth is somewhere in the middle.

Dal is advocating socialism not communism. There is dissent in communism Asher and free press (TRUE communism), but the whole bonus thing and a government at all, is very un-True-communist.

	02-06-2002 03:08									#48
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All that needs to be noted, and apologies to Che in advance, is that though wonderful in theory, communism has failed miserably wherever it's been.

	02-06-2002 03:09									#49
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quote: Originally posted by Dalgetti yes , yes , yes. communism is a socio-economical system for the equal distribution of wealth, not a blueprint to build a human hive. ( some SMACers might disagree.)

How do you achieve equal distribution of wealth when you give bonuses to people as an incentive for performance?

Communism is so silly, your version even moreso.

	02-06-2002 03:14									#50
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oh common , by equal , the meaning is not creating classes of people , richer and poorer , and not letting any differences that might be created to affect future generations. like having the top 1/10 owning 86% of everything?!

and yes Imran , the "pure" communism. It's all to libertarian to me.

I am basically a utilitarian (1AM sp? ) . a strong government is critical to the directed efford of humans.

	02-06-2002 03:15									#51
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See what I mean about humor, Cal?

	02-06-2002 03:17									#52
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Anyone else find it interesting how Dal knows more about politics than Eli although the latter uses living in Israel as an excuse for knowing bugger all? I smell a conspiracy.

	02-06-2002 03:19									#53
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time to change underwear , Ecthelion.

	02-06-2002 03:20									#54
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Bah. At least I don't need to claim to have a big d!ck in order to achieve social status

	02-06-2002 03:21									#55
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Dalgetti's claims should be taken with a truckload of salt.

"Big" is relative, and in Israel I'm sure they've had their fair share of botched circumcisions.

	02-06-2002 03:22									#56
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quote: Bah. At least I don't need to claim to have a big d!ck in order to achieve social status

No, you just act like a big d!ck.

	02-06-2002 03:22									#57
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That must be it, Asher.

But then, Dal seems to be tall in person as well. Proportional directly or indirectly?

	02-06-2002 03:22									#58
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claim? proven facts , my friend.

now off with the threadjacking.

	02-06-2002 03:24									#59
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You haven't proven anything here at 'poly, not even stated a concrete number

	02-06-2002 03:26									#60
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quote: Originally posted by Dalgetti claim? proven facts , my friend. now off with the threadjacking.

I`d quit while you can!