05-06-2002 18:04									#31
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quote: Originally posted by Roland Anyway, what has it got to do with Bush ?

Nothing. It has to do with the judging the value of pre-emptive military action.

	05-06-2002 18:06									#32
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I'd lean towards saying justified.

	05-06-2002 18:14									#33
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Ok, since you don't hold preemptive action as being totally out of the question I'm going to assume your earlier "hostility" has to do with somesort of animus towards Bush.

Under what sort of conditions would you be comfortable with such action being taken?

	05-06-2002 18:20									#34
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No, I only hold hostility against stupid actions by rabid delusional ideology freaks. Bush just happens to dwell in that category quite frequently.

What preemptive action are we talking about ?

	05-06-2002 18:27									#35
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quote: Originally posted by Roland What preemptive action are we talking about ?

To pick a convenient example, destroying the nuclear reactor being built in Iran that's giving the Israelis such fits. Or if the CIA/NSA could ever get the whereabouts of Saddam pinned down, a raid along the lines of what the US undertook in Libya.

Edit: I realize that the last one isn't a preemptive attack but it obviously is on the table.

	05-06-2002 18:53									#36
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Iran: in the current situation I do not see enough danger to prevent, but a lot of disadvantages coming up (convenient propaganda material, weakening the reform powers).

Saddam: As long as he runs this regime, he's morally a free-for-all to kill. The problem is with judgment - should one country decide about the life of another's head of state ? Next time China may deem it convenient to assassinate a US president, and I prefer no such precedent.

	05-06-2002 19:19									#37
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I don't trust Bush motivation. Iracq have no technical capacity to reach american soil.

The argument of "that country have anti-US terrorist so we must attack them first" is the poorest Casus Belli ever found.

Terrorism against western exist because :
1) Because od the politicies of Western country towar "poor" country.
2) Because poor country have no way to fight succesfully by convential war against western country.
3) Local leaders used western to embody the root of all illness, in order to have more control of their population.

Point 2) cannot be directly resolved. it is illogical to train and give weapon to a potential enemy.

Point 1) can be resolved is rich country are far more genereous to poor country.

Point 3) is linked to point 1).

Removing a leader is not easy and could have unpredictable effects.

	05-06-2002 19:37									#38
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I don't like the notion of pre-emptive strikes.

I mean, the strategy gamer in me likes it very much, in real life however....I dunno.

I guess I'm in the boat of not trusting our current leadership enough? The way he's playing it, he would use any singular flag burning incident as "probable cause" to launch a freakin' invasion...and that's not what it's supposed to be about.

At that point, he's essentially attempting thought control.



What is needed are clear cut actions that would in all liklihood LEAD DIRECTLY TO conflict, and use that as the basis for pre-emptive strikes.

So far, I've seen nothing like that....I get the sense that the Bush camp would answer that with a knowing nod and a "We'll know it when we see it." kinna answer.

Yeah....

-=Vel=-

	05-06-2002 20:08									#39
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quote: Originally posted by Roland Charges ? The Clinton impeachment has shown that anything will do, has it not ? How about DUI 20 odd years ago ?

You really don't have a clue do you?

	05-06-2002 20:10									#40
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quote: Originally posted by Roland No, I only hold hostility against stupid actions by rabid delusional ideology freaks. Bush just happens to dwell in that category quite frequently. What preemptive action are we talking about ?

You betray yourself, Roland.

	05-06-2002 20:16									#41
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quote: Originally posted by Roland in the current situation I do not see enough danger to prevent,

In your opinion, what level would the potential threat have to reach before action would be justified? Please generalize your response because the Iran reactor example wasn't meant seriously.

	05-06-2002 20:18									#42
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Define preventive strike. Localized bombing ? Global war ?

	05-06-2002 20:21									#43
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quote: Originally posted by ZoboZeWarrior Define preventive strike. Localized bombing ? Global war ?

Why do you ask? The French are against both.

	05-06-2002 20:43									#44
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"Why, and does that mean you agree with the rest ?"

Hitler's Phony War took place between October '39 and April '40.

Re "the rest", by which measure do you judge the musings of a raving lunatic?

Re pre-emptive strikes, as a rule I think they're a bad idea. However, Bush lays out fairly successfully why it might be the least worst option in this instance.

	05-06-2002 21:04									#45
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc Why do you ask? The French are against both.

Definitively not a good reason to not answer ...

The fact that "french" (our gouvernment, I presume) have both interest that peace remaind in the region and doubts about the real threat of Iracq.

For french citizen, they could be classified in three categories :
1) Those who don't care about Iracq.
2) Those who agree with American policies.
3) Those who don't agree.

	05-06-2002 21:13									#46
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quote: Originally posted by ZoboZeWarrior The fact that "french" (our gouvernment, I presume) have both interest that peace remaind in the region and doubts about the real threat of Iracq.

I really was mentioning Iraq. I was refering to French actions dating back to the US raid on Libya.

	05-06-2002 22:51									#47
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No...the more I think about this, the more I'm troubled by it. This is more of the same interventionist crap that got us IN the current situation to start with.

We can't win that way.

with pre-emptive strikes!

-=Vel=-

	05-06-2002 23:30									#48
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Perfect example of the "pre-emptive strike" idea gone really, really wrong.

No Problem With New FBI Surveillance Guidelines, Scholar Says

WASHINGTON--The Justice Department is expected to announce today new guidelines giving greater latitude to FBI agents to monitor Internet sites, libraries, and religious institutions without first having to offer evidence of potential criminal activity. Roger Pilon, vice president for legal affairs at the Cato Institute and a former Justice Department official, had the following remarks:

"As reported in the press, the new FBI surveillance guidelines present no serious problems. Especially under post-September 11 circumstances, law enforcement monitoring of public places is simply good, pro-active police work that violates the rights of no one. The same is true for topical research not directly related to a specific crime, which the new guidelines will permit.

"Depending on how the work is conducted, there is always the potential for abuse, of course. But unless the new latitude leads to significant abuse, that potential should not preclude officials from taking an active role not simply in prosecuting but in preventing crime as well."

******

-=Vel=-

	05-06-2002 23:34									#49
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Cato is a Libertarian think tank, Vel. They would be the first to complain if they thought that its went over the line.

	05-06-2002 23:40									#50
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Which means . . . THEY'VE SOLD OUT!!!!!

	05-06-2002 23:43									#51
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Apparently, somebody forgot to tell it to the guy who made the comments....

I'm just not sure I'm convinced that granting the FBI the right to snoop in on the Luthern Ladies' Bake Sale is going to help catch bad guys....

The potential for abuse here is HUGE! No...it's so far beyond huge that it defies description.

This is an open license for the FBI (who, by the way, is being strictly forbidden to even look in the general direction of events surrounding 9/11) to snoop on anyone at any time without having to show probable cause???

No way.



-=Vel=-

	05-06-2002 23:44									#52
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Which means . . . THEY'VE SOLD OUT!!!!!

To what? Would you like me to dig up articles post-Sept 11 that are critical of the government? I can find them easily enough.

	05-06-2002 23:46									#53
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It wasn't that the rules weren't in place for the FBI to find the bad guys, it's that they were too busy looking for drugs to look for bad guys. And because they were ordered by the Pres to stop investigating the people giving money to the bad guys. In none of the cases of FBI f***-ups was it because of rules, but because of bureaucracy and politics.

All the new rules do is make it easier to spy on internal dissent.

	05-06-2002 23:48									#54
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc To what? Would you like me to dig up articles post-Sept 11 that are critical of the government? I can find them easily enough.

Come on, let me be a smart ass once in a while.

	05-06-2002 23:48									#55
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Vel, the United States and Saudi Arabia have been de facto allies since the 1930s when United States geologists discovered oil in Saudi Arabia. In exchange for oil rights, we backed the Saud family's conquest of the peninsula.

When Saddam attacked Kuwait, Saudi Arabia felt threatened and asked us for help. That's why we "intervened."

Last edited by Ned on 06-06-2002 at 00:19

	05-06-2002 23:53									#56
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***Quote from the article I posted earlier - emphasis added by me***

giving greater latitude to FBI agents to monitor Internet sites, libraries, and religious institutions without first having to offer evidence of potential criminal activity.

Yeah...it makes it easier all right....it's also about half a step away from ditching the entire CONCEPT of due process....and why not?! Imagine how much more efficient it'd be!



That sucks....no two ways about it.

-=Vel=-

	06-06-2002 00:04									#57
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quote: Originally posted by Velociryx giving greater latitude to FBI agents to monitor Internet sites, libraries, and religious institutions without first having to offer evidence of potential criminal activity.

I just thought that I would mention something that wasn't made clear in your article Vel.

The new guidelines say that FBI agents now have the authority to enter public places and forums (ie internet sites, libraries, etc.) to observe, develop leads and investigate. Religious institutions aren't even mentioned in the change.

	06-06-2002 00:13									#58
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara So, we're gonna keep Iran out while letting Turkey occupy Northern Iraq? Seems two-faced.

Who said turkey would occupy nothern iraq? What the hell do you base this on? If anything? I love how some of you people jump to such conclusions.

As for Iran. It is still the policy of washington to contain Shiite fundamentalism, which could destabilize the entire region. So it does not threaten our energy interests.

quote: If we go into Iraq, we're gonna have to stay in Iraq to keep it together as a territorial entity. Otherwise it breaks up into a Kurdistan, a poor Sunni Arab republic around Bagdad, and a Southern oil-rich Shi'ite state.

No it doesnt. Afghanistan hasnt. The ethnic divide is even larger than that of Iraq. Stop getting hysterical and looking at the huge ask ahead. We will cross those bridges when we get to them.

quote: It's time to stop this madman at our helm. One can only hope that it will be proven that the Administration knew and did nothing. . . . of course, that might prompt them to proclaim the Republic of Gilead

There is no madman out our helm.Your just looking to bash a president who still is riding high 70% approval ratings. And honestly, I think your kind are getting scared that the country actually likes him, your cheap pot-shots arent working to crack him. His handling of the economy and WoT has been good.



Zobo: A cassius bell already exists. He tried to assanite Bush Sn. and he is a meglomaniac dictator who is obessed with WoMD. Are you people blind to see that if Terrorists got ahold of these, millions would die. I dont wanna take that chance, Im glad bush and the majority of Americans holds the same view.


As for the cheap accusations that bush is controlled by corporations. Typical BS drivel when theres nothing Intellegent to say about the topic.

	06-06-2002 00:27									#59
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quote: Originally posted by Velociryx ***Quote from the article I posted earlier - emphasis added by me*** giving greater latitude to FBI agents to monitor Internet sites, libraries, and religious institutions without first having to offer evidence of potential criminal activity. Yeah...it makes it easier all right....it's also about half a step away from ditching the entire CONCEPT of due process....and why not?! Imagine how much more efficient it'd be! That sucks....no two ways about it. -=Vel=-

I'm sorry Vel, but the Internet is the largely in the public domain. There is no expectation of privacy in public fora. I am amazed that the FBI could not look at terrorist's websites until now. What a joke!

	06-06-2002 00:30									#60
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Ya they cant even go into public chatroom and moniter activity! Until now atleast