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monkspider
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banned
Aug 2001
time: 23:20
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 06-06-2002 13:04
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#1
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How Firaxis can fix the two Civ traits everyone hates- Expansionist and Commercial
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Support Apolyton
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Four of the six civ traits are mostly well liked, you may see an occasional bad post about Militaristic, or maybe someone who doesn't like scientific every once in a while. But compared to these four, there are two civ traits that *MUCH* more complained about. These two are Expansionist and Commerical. In the thread that follows I will explain the case against them for any would-be Firaxis readers and exactly how they can be fixed in a balancing way.
Expansionist-
Why we don't like it- First and foremost, there is absolultely nothing to look forward to beyond the first ten or twenty turns. This goes beyond not being a very good trait, but it's absolutely no fun at all. You have no idea how depressing it is to know that once the first few turns are over, you have one civ trait that will contribute absolutely nothing to your cause. Secondly, the benefits that it offers aren't nearly as good as the others. The fact that you *MIGHT* get a few ancient level techs if you happen to be close to a few goodie huts is hardly ever as good as the benefits of say cheap temples or faster workers. So even if you do happen to have a little bit of good luck, 99.9% of the time the benefits you get are very slim compared to other civs. Moreover, if you are lucky enough to find horseback riding in some goodie hut, everyone knows ancient level techs are the easiest thing in the world to trade for anyway, so this is doubly damning to any conceivable benefits to being an expansionist civ. And yes, you do get to explore the map a little bit earlier, and maybe gain a shield or two of production from a couple of your cities because you were able to place your cities in more strategically sound locations, due to scouts. But that is about the only thing Expansionist civs have going for them. So we have already established that being an expansionist civ is without question much less "fun" than any other trait, is arguably much less "effective" than other trait, the fact that it's entire success is based on pure luck is something that just shouldnt' be in a Civ game. The fact that expansionist civs recieve absolutely ANY benefit at all relies on map settings being set a certain way is just ludicrus. As I see it, If Expansionist civs aren't retooled, there is going to exist a game-balance hole big enough for a mack truck to drive through.
How to fix it: There are a number of novel ways for expansionist civs to be effectively retooled. I like Apolyton user Nationalists' suggestion to make it less likely for cities conquered by expansionist civs to culture-flip. Thus, effectively allowing them to "expand" more easily. Given some player's annoyance to Culture-flips, this would make them much more attractive. It would simply have to be a resistance to culture-flipping large enough to be noticeable, but small enough to not be game-balancing. If you could simply do this, expansionist civs would see their stock rise greatly.
Commerical-
Why we hate it- I don't really have any particular outspoken feelings regarding the commerical trait. It's just that, well, it just doesn't do much. It is said to reduce your corruption in theory but in practice all it does is increase your optimal number of cities by one (read: it does nothing). Poster Alexman's study has proved it does next to nothing for corruption. So beyond that it offers a little bit of extra income in your major cities, which is helpful but isn't really a huge deal. And aside from that, it does nothing! It doesn't even lower the cost of commerical-oriented city improvements. Which leads us to our next point.
How to fix it- Simply raise the ammount that it lowers corruption by, raise it maybe to be about equal to the ammount that a courthouse lowers. And then just allow commericial civs to have cheaper marketplaces and banks. That's it. That's all you need to do. 
I hope Firaxis takes this into serious consideration, and I urge players who agree to vote yes, in the poll at the top, that these civ traits to need to be improved in order to be taken seriously in multiplayer competition. These traits are at the heart of every civ, and if not improved will create a huge balance issue.
Last edited by monkspider on 06-06-2002 at 13:09
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High Lord J
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Missed:
Commerical- Best chance of getting first republic.
Expanist- With scout you can quickly find other civs and bulid cities to block them from getting much more cities.
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MiloMilo
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Monkspider, is that confirmed that it only raise optimal cities by 1? I've been playing with commercial civs lately, and thought I could see a noticeable reduction in corruption. But maybe that was across the board...
I think commercial civs should get cheaper marketplaces (needed because it's actually a rather expensive improvement) and either cheaper banks or cheaper harbors - I can't decide which. No big deal either way though.
Also, a good suggestion for expansionist civs was that their galleys and caravels have a lower chance of sinking in deep water (and in my view, all others' boats should have a higher chance of sinking). They could more easily claim islands, contact other civs, etc. Thus their benefits could potentially extend all the way until Navigation.
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DrFell
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Well I think expansionist trait will be good in MP as you'll be able to locate your opponents much earlier and they won't all be stupid enough to share maps with you 
But if you really want to make it a killer give scouts a 1 defence.
Last edited by DrFell on 06-06-2002 at 23:22
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DrFell
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A free settler would be far far too powerful for any civ trait IMO. Instantly doubled expansion = you will be nearly double the size the whole game.
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playshogi
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I agree with making marketplaces and banks cheaper and perhaps courthouses, for commercial. With expansionist, I think the scout should get to move 2 regardless of terrain. Also, how about letting expasionist cities expand at 8,80,800 etc. instead of 10,100,1000 etc.? Or,maybe 0, 100, 1000 that is every city founded immediately controls 21 squares.
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Lucilla
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The Netherlands
Apr 2002
time: 06:20
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quote:
Originally posted by playshogi
I agree with making marketplaces and banks cheaper and perhaps courthouses, for commercial. With expansionist, I think the scout should get to move 2 regardless of terrain. Also, how about letting expasionist cities expand at 8,80,800 etc. instead of 10,100,1000 etc.? Or,maybe 0, 100, 1000 that is every city founded immediately controls 21 squares. |
Yes, marketplaces and banks should be cheaper, cheaper courthouses would be too much, IMO.
I'd prefer the 0, 100, 1000 option, because the 8, 80, 800 would be too powerful. It would also be then be a more cultural than expansionist trait, and expansion by culture is already represented by religious and scientific traits.
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panag
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MY WORDS ARE BACKED WITH BIO-CHEMICAL WEAPONS
Oct 2000
time: 07:20
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quote:
Originally posted by Lucilla
Yes, marketplaces and banks should be cheaper, cheaper courthouses would be too much, IMO.
I'd prefer the 0, 100, 1000 option, because the 8, 80, 800 would be too powerful. It would also be then be a more cultural than expansionist trait, and expansion by culture is already represented by religious and scientific traits. |
hi ,
that can be done true the editor , .....
have a nice day
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Ijuin
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Tokyo, Japan
May 2002
time: 14:20
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I agree that Commercial civs would be appropriately strengthened by giving them half price Marketplaces/Banks.
As for Expansionist civs, I would give them a second special unit, the Coracle. This is like a Galley with no attack power (0.1.3, carry 2), and would upgrade to Caraval. The Coracle would be available from the start of the game, cost 30 shields, and travel over Coastal and Sea squares (sink in Ocean even WITH the Great Lighthouse).
Alternatively, the Expansionist civs could get half price Aqueducts and Hospitals, which would give them a benefit throughout the game instead of just during the Ancient Age.
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I don't think anything more is necessary.
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